wired office with data and voice jacks at at each location voice goes back to 110 block in closet ,and data patch panel, everything is wired 568B. asked to split cat 5 for voice at two locations, boss told me to put blue and orange pairs on first jack following wire map on jack, on second jack he said use green and brown pairs, putting green in the blue position 4,5 and brown in the orange position which i belive was 1,2...some one else said use the color order i used but use pins 4,5 for blue and 3,6 for orange and 4,5 for green, and 3, 6 for brown does any one know how this should be done,,thanks..
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splitting cat 5 cable for voice pinout i should use when using 568b 10
- Thread starter victor39
- Start date
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- #2
TouchToneTommy
Vendor
For 2-pair voice on an 8-pin jack, you want to use pins 4&5 for the 1st pair, and 3&6 for the 2nd pair. The jacks are usually marked for BOTH 568-A and 568-B.
If you are following the 568-B markings, for the 1st jack, using the 1st and 2nd pairs of the cable, Blue pairs go to Blue jack pins (4 & 5). Orange pairs go to Green jack pins (3 & 6)
For the 2nd jack, using the 3rd and 4th cable pairs, the Green cable pairs go to the Blue pins (4 & 5), and the Brown cable pairs go to the Green pins (4 & 6).
This will give you 2 "USOC" "RJ-14" jacks.
If you are following the 568-B markings, for the 1st jack, using the 1st and 2nd pairs of the cable, Blue pairs go to Blue jack pins (4 & 5). Orange pairs go to Green jack pins (3 & 6)
For the 2nd jack, using the 3rd and 4th cable pairs, the Green cable pairs go to the Blue pins (4 & 5), and the Brown cable pairs go to the Green pins (4 & 6).
This will give you 2 "USOC" "RJ-14" jacks.
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mikeydidit
IS-IT--Management
What we normally do these days is lay down the 4 pair on one jack. If you need to add something later then just use the next pair and lay it down on 4,5, or the white/blue on the second jack. If you need more then take another pair later. Most everything will work on a single pair these days. (And yes Tommy is correct that the Partners need 2 pairs.) ![[pipe]](/data/assets/smilies/pipe.gif "[pipe] [pipe]")
Mike Jones
Louisiana State University Health Sciences center
Mike Jones
Louisiana State University Health Sciences center
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Servamatic
IS-IT--Management
What you should really be doing is terminating ALL 4 pair correctly on ONE jack and using a biscuit or some other adapter such as the Leviton 4x4 Breakout Module Part # 47609-4x4 to make the splits outside the wall.
That way if you ever decide to use the jack location for something else, like a computer, all you do is unplug the adapter. NO reterminating.
Just say NO to splitting pairs!!
Oh and Tommy, if you are using positions 3 & 6, and 4 & 5, you don't have an RJ-14, you have a bastardized 8P8C.
Richard S. Anderson, RCDD
That way if you ever decide to use the jack location for something else, like a computer, all you do is unplug the adapter. NO reterminating.
Just say NO to splitting pairs!!
Oh and Tommy, if you are using positions 3 & 6, and 4 & 5, you don't have an RJ-14, you have a bastardized 8P8C.
Richard S. Anderson, RCDD
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daronwilson
Vendor
I concur splitting the pairs is not the best way, i find it specified fairly often, and as such will install the physical cabling as requested. Actually, when that is the request, we normally use a USOC jack for the phone, making it clear that it is not Data compliant. I MUCH prefer this over having a dongle hanging out of each jack in an effort to get what you really wanted from the 'standards compliant' installation, just one more part to go wrong.
Again my stance is to point out to the customer that this installation will not be standards compliant. If they want it built that way, I'll build it for them after warning them that it is not compliant.
While wiring them that way, they may not meet the letter of the law for being an RJ14. However they will function just like an RJ14.
Disclaimer: This installation will not meet the EIA/TIA standards
Good Luck
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
Again my stance is to point out to the customer that this installation will not be standards compliant. If they want it built that way, I'll build it for them after warning them that it is not compliant.
While wiring them that way, they may not meet the letter of the law for being an RJ14. However they will function just like an RJ14.
Disclaimer: This installation will not meet the EIA/TIA standards
Good Luck
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
- Thread starter
- #6
touch tone tommy just for clarification , the only pins used when splitting the jack are 3,6, and 4,5 ...because at the tail end of your reply you posted 4,6 for the brown pair but i believe that was a typo...thx for your inital reply..Vic
TouchToneTommy
Vendor
Victor - yes you are correct, 3 & 6 for the Brown Pair.
As far as not meeting EIA/TIA, or "bastardized 8P8C", that's not what the original poster asked; I'm just answering his honest question. He didn't say he wanted to pull an additonal cable to each location to get the 2nd VOICE jack, he didn't say he wanted to make up a bunch of dongles for both ends of a patch panel (the voice is on 110), he just need another voice jack!
As far as not meeting EIA/TIA, or "bastardized 8P8C", that's not what the original poster asked; I'm just answering his honest question. He didn't say he wanted to pull an additonal cable to each location to get the 2nd VOICE jack, he didn't say he wanted to make up a bunch of dongles for both ends of a patch panel (the voice is on 110), he just need another voice jack!
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- #8
Using dongles and 8p8c jacks for phones are ways to ASSURE that you will be going back on a regular basis to fix problems.
The practice of terminating different pairs from a cable in separate jacks is not "splitting pairs". A split pair in a telephone cable is when one conductor of one pair is switched with one conductor of another pair. Not the same thing!
As long as all the jacks are documented and wired the same troubleshooting should not be a problem. If you want to swap voice jacks for data in the future just replace the jacks. I don't think that is very likely unless the entire office goes to VOIP. Using 8p8c jacks for voice is not the best idea due to user confusion and degradation of the first and last pair pins when used with a smaller plug.
The practice of terminating different pairs from a cable in separate jacks is not "splitting pairs". A split pair in a telephone cable is when one conductor of one pair is switched with one conductor of another pair. Not the same thing!
As long as all the jacks are documented and wired the same troubleshooting should not be a problem. If you want to swap voice jacks for data in the future just replace the jacks. I don't think that is very likely unless the entire office goes to VOIP. Using 8p8c jacks for voice is not the best idea due to user confusion and degradation of the first and last pair pins when used with a smaller plug.
Servamatic
IS-IT--Management
Wires
Funny thing, I have been doing it the proper way for years and I have yet to have a problem. So I categorically deny your claim that doing it the right way ASSURES trouble, that is an absurd statement.
Of course if you use cheap jacks and your customer is always fiddling with them, plugging and unplugging I could see where you may have problems. But that is not a likely scenario in most offices.
I am finding with the rise in popularity of VoIP, I am very glad I have done things the proper way, because I have been going back and making just such changes and it has been a breeze, just plug and play, no retermination.
The problem with your statement about documentation is that it is rarely done and even more rare is keeping it updated. I have found that most companies that don't follow the standards to begin with could care less about proper documentation.
I realize "split pair" is a term for a pin to pin miswired situation, but the term "splitting pairs" is common terminolgy for the practice we have been discussing. They are two different things. Here is a catalog reference for a Hubbel product...
Splitting Y adapter converts a T568B wired RJ45 jack by splitting pairs 1 & 4 to a voice wired 8 position jack 1, and pairs 2 & 3 to a 10BASE-T wired...
Perhaps you should be more familiar with common terminolgy before you make such statements.
Richard S. Anderson, RCDD
Funny thing, I have been doing it the proper way for years and I have yet to have a problem. So I categorically deny your claim that doing it the right way ASSURES trouble, that is an absurd statement.
Of course if you use cheap jacks and your customer is always fiddling with them, plugging and unplugging I could see where you may have problems. But that is not a likely scenario in most offices.
I am finding with the rise in popularity of VoIP, I am very glad I have done things the proper way, because I have been going back and making just such changes and it has been a breeze, just plug and play, no retermination.
The problem with your statement about documentation is that it is rarely done and even more rare is keeping it updated. I have found that most companies that don't follow the standards to begin with could care less about proper documentation.
I realize "split pair" is a term for a pin to pin miswired situation, but the term "splitting pairs" is common terminolgy for the practice we have been discussing. They are two different things. Here is a catalog reference for a Hubbel product...
Splitting Y adapter converts a T568B wired RJ45 jack by splitting pairs 1 & 4 to a voice wired 8 position jack 1, and pairs 2 & 3 to a 10BASE-T wired...
Perhaps you should be more familiar with common terminolgy before you make such statements.
Richard S. Anderson, RCDD
I know what I have seen...
*** An office with 4 jacks per plate, all 8p8c. The office staff likes to move around and call on a regular basis because they can't figure out which jack is for the phones. You can't stop most customers from moving things around. You can make it easier for them to do so.
*** Installations that require various splitters and dongels to make things work. Painters or office furniture guys come and unhook everything (usually losing some parts) and it takes way too much effort to sort things out. Besides most of those adapters cost more than three jacks. Why bother? If the goal is to connect a phone put in a 6 position jack (or 2 or 3 or 4) and be done with it.
In this case the closet end is terminated in a 110 block. I could see your point if it was a 8p8c patch panel but it's not. One and two pair phones are going to be around for a while. There is nothing wrong with doing what victor39 or TouchToneTommy are describing (except using 8p jacks for phones). In my experience using 6p jacks for phones works better and costs less. BTW I don't use cheap anything.
I knew what you meant by "splitting pairs" but if you talk to a telephone craftsperson the definition I used is how they would interpret the phrase. When we are working on telephone circuits we are working in their world. Statements like "Just say NO to splitting pairs!!" creates needless confusion.
*** An office with 4 jacks per plate, all 8p8c. The office staff likes to move around and call on a regular basis because they can't figure out which jack is for the phones. You can't stop most customers from moving things around. You can make it easier for them to do so.
*** Installations that require various splitters and dongels to make things work. Painters or office furniture guys come and unhook everything (usually losing some parts) and it takes way too much effort to sort things out. Besides most of those adapters cost more than three jacks. Why bother? If the goal is to connect a phone put in a 6 position jack (or 2 or 3 or 4) and be done with it.
In this case the closet end is terminated in a 110 block. I could see your point if it was a 8p8c patch panel but it's not. One and two pair phones are going to be around for a while. There is nothing wrong with doing what victor39 or TouchToneTommy are describing (except using 8p jacks for phones). In my experience using 6p jacks for phones works better and costs less. BTW I don't use cheap anything.
I knew what you meant by "splitting pairs" but if you talk to a telephone craftsperson the definition I used is how they would interpret the phrase. When we are working on telephone circuits we are working in their world. Statements like "Just say NO to splitting pairs!!" creates needless confusion.
Servamatic
IS-IT--Management
You have illustrated my point exactly...if the wall plates were labeled, i.e. documented, you wouldn't have the problems with things being confusing.
Perhaps to you and many others there is nothing wrong with these practices, but to someone who believes in following the standards then everything is wrong with it.
Since I believe in them enough to sit on several standards committees, I firmly believe they are worth following.
Standards are created to ensure functionality, longevity, and performance. Without them we would have the crap we use to have with having to change the infrastructure just to upgrade to new computers. Which is what you are advocating. Change something? "We need to re-terminate those jacks Mr. Customer". Do you do that for free? Doubtful.
Following the standards in this situation, my Tech Support people can walk a customer through the change over the phone, and have done so.
We will have to agree to disagree on this, and that’s ok, because I believe when someone posts non-standards compliant information someone has to point out the proper way to accomplish the task. The choice to follow them is up to each individual.
Richard S. Anderson, RCDD
Perhaps to you and many others there is nothing wrong with these practices, but to someone who believes in following the standards then everything is wrong with it.
Since I believe in them enough to sit on several standards committees, I firmly believe they are worth following.
Standards are created to ensure functionality, longevity, and performance. Without them we would have the crap we use to have with having to change the infrastructure just to upgrade to new computers. Which is what you are advocating. Change something? "We need to re-terminate those jacks Mr. Customer". Do you do that for free? Doubtful.
Following the standards in this situation, my Tech Support people can walk a customer through the change over the phone, and have done so.
We will have to agree to disagree on this, and that’s ok, because I believe when someone posts non-standards compliant information someone has to point out the proper way to accomplish the task. The choice to follow them is up to each individual.
Richard S. Anderson, RCDD
I agree that standards are great. Thanks for taking the time and effort to promgulate them.
Please post a cite where terminating 2 pairs of a 4 pair cable to one 6p4c jack and the other 2 pairs to another 6p4c jack is not standards compliant for telephone usage.
"walk a customer through the change over the phone". That is great unless they need some dongle that your installation requires.
Please post a cite where terminating 2 pairs of a 4 pair cable to one 6p4c jack and the other 2 pairs to another 6p4c jack is not standards compliant for telephone usage.
"walk a customer through the change over the phone". That is great unless they need some dongle that your installation requires.
Servamatic
IS-IT--Management
Since I can not legally post the standards that is not practical. Besides, proving a negative is not a practical feat. Perhaps you could post proof that it is compliant, since you seem to be claiming it is.
ANSI/TIA Standards do not differentiate between Voice and Data except to state that Cat 3 is recognized for voice. The standards only recognize the 8P8C connectors on horizontal cabling.
Richard S. Anderson, RCDD
ANSI/TIA Standards do not differentiate between Voice and Data except to state that Cat 3 is recognized for voice. The standards only recognize the 8P8C connectors on horizontal cabling.
Richard S. Anderson, RCDD
Since I can not legally post the standards that is not practical." You could certainly quote or paraphrase the applicable parts. Or just give the document name, chapter and section so those with the documents could look it up.
"proving a negative is not a practical feat" I'm not really asking you to prove a negative. You have as much as stated that what I am posting "non-standards compliant information" and I would appreciate if you would back that up.
If ANSI/TIA standards only recognize 8p8c connectors on horizontal cabling then there are very few "standards compliant" telephone installations out there. By extension everything installed by the phone company is not "standards compliant" either.
"proving a negative is not a practical feat" I'm not really asking you to prove a negative. You have as much as stated that what I am posting "non-standards compliant information" and I would appreciate if you would back that up.
If ANSI/TIA standards only recognize 8p8c connectors on horizontal cabling then there are very few "standards compliant" telephone installations out there. By extension everything installed by the phone company is not "standards compliant" either.
franklin97355
Technical User
Richard, just my 2 cents but, if ANSI/TIA standards don't have 6p4c jacks then that standard does not apply to most phone installations since that is what is used.
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- #16
TIA/EIA 568B-1 6.2.1
"Each 4-pair cable shall be terminated in an eight-position modular jack at the work area"
We much prefer the 8P8C patch panel and work area outlet configuration for all voice and data. I recall this issue was extensively debated in a previous thread..
It is rare to see any standards (or even electrical code) compliant horizontal cabling installed by the telco around here.
"Each 4-pair cable shall be terminated in an eight-position modular jack at the work area"
We much prefer the 8P8C patch panel and work area outlet configuration for all voice and data. I recall this issue was extensively debated in a previous thread..
It is rare to see any standards (or even electrical code) compliant horizontal cabling installed by the telco around here.
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- #17
Common Guys!
The whole idea of structure wiring is to (I should look up the exact quote but won't) to create a unversal and flexible fixed wiring infrastructure that can be used ina variety of ways.
This si sexactly what servamstic is advocating.
This is strictly opposite to the "custom" or "craft" approach where everything is designed specifically for the current system to be installed.
Huge difference. The former is MUCH more flexible. The latter may well be more "efficient" in terms of material (and possibly initial time).
The former is nearly self-documenting because it is relatively rigid. The latter is not (and if the docs get lost gets to the typical wander around with a toner spending hours to do what should be a 15 minute MAC.
Not to say documentation is advisable in both cases.
And yes, Richard is correct that no matter how you do it labelling is a must.
Reminds me of the Bell System in somehtig like the 50's. Office Key systems were assembled in the filed using "wiring plan" documents. Each one was custom. The they invented 1A1 and 1A2 and made up a standard system that still permitted a degree of customization.
have fun
The whole idea of structure wiring is to (I should look up the exact quote but won't) to create a unversal and flexible fixed wiring infrastructure that can be used ina variety of ways.
This si sexactly what servamstic is advocating.
This is strictly opposite to the "custom" or "craft" approach where everything is designed specifically for the current system to be installed.
Huge difference. The former is MUCH more flexible. The latter may well be more "efficient" in terms of material (and possibly initial time).
The former is nearly self-documenting because it is relatively rigid. The latter is not (and if the docs get lost gets to the typical wander around with a toner spending hours to do what should be a 15 minute MAC.
Not to say documentation is advisable in both cases.
And yes, Richard is correct that no matter how you do it labelling is a must.
Reminds me of the Bell System in somehtig like the 50's. Office Key systems were assembled in the filed using "wiring plan" documents. Each one was custom. The they invented 1A1 and 1A2 and made up a standard system that still permitted a degree of customization.
have fun
mikeydidit
IS-IT--Management
When I did my initial post, I should have added a couple of things so my reply may have been better understood. My telecomm and networking closets are in different rooms. This being the case, our voice jacks will never be used for VoIP. We still use Cat3 for voice because of this and lay all (telephone) cables down on 66 blocks. I try to keep up with and follow all the TIA/EIA standards for our complex but this may be the exception. Personally I don't like the little adaptors that plug into jacks. That is something that will be broken off at one point or another and then someone is without service. That’s just one more reason I will use the second pair of a 4 pair and install another jack and install it into the same faceplate. I use the Pass & Seymour stuff here which is very flexible. The single gang face plates are setup to hold 3 jacks. Most of the time 3 jacks are not needed, so we install blanks into the remaining slots. In our PBX environment most everything we install is setup with a single pair. This saves our departments money by using as many pairs of this cable as we can and not having to charge them to pull in another cable.
Mike Jones
Louisiana State University Health Sciences center
Mike Jones
Louisiana State University Health Sciences center
Be careful when using pins 3,4,5,6 which is the standard pinout for say a 2 line phone. I have ran into problems with dividing 2 jacks this way and then finding out that the customer has a legacy AT&T switch that uses pins 1,2,3,6 just like ethernet. Always find out what kind of phone system they have before you start terminating the voice jacks.
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