Tek-Tips is the largest IT community on the Internet today!
Members share and learn making Tek-Tips Forums the best source of peer-reviewed technical information on the Internet!
-
Congratulations IamaSherpa on being selected by the Tek-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!
Spam vs Spam? 2
- Thread starter Dimandja
- Start date
mrdenny
Programmer
- May 27, 2002
- 11,595
Many whitehat groups are recommending not getting involved in the maylovenotspam.com system. Technically using this screen saver will violate your EULA with your ISP. There is probably a clause in there about intentionaly spamming or intentionaly being a part of a DDoS.
Denny
--Anything is possible. All it takes is a little research. (Me)
![[noevil]](/data/assets/smilies/noevil.gif "[noevil] [noevil]")
(My very old site)
Denny
--Anything is possible. All it takes is a little research. (Me)
(My very old site)
MasterRacker
New member
It'll be interesting to see how this actually plays out.
Jeff
The future is already here - it's just not widely distributed yet...
Jeff
The future is already here - it's just not widely distributed yet...
mrdenny
Programmer
- May 27, 2002
- 11,595
Yeah, even if the end result is that spammers go away, I'm not sure how well I could sleep knowing that I was intentionally adding to the problem.
Denny
--Anything is possible. All it takes is a little research. (Me)
(My very old site)
Denny
--Anything is possible. All it takes is a little research. (Me)
(My very old site)
It's just wrong, in so many ways...
So many better ways to use your idle time - see the grid for a good list:
[ul]
[li]SETI - the Search for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence[/li]
[li]Cancer research - with Oxford Uni[/li]
[li]Decoding the human genome[/li]
[/ul]
And many more, I'm sure.
<marc>
So many better ways to use your idle time - see the grid for a good list:
[ul]
[li]SETI - the Search for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence[/li]
[li]Cancer research - with Oxford Uni[/li]
[li]Decoding the human genome[/li]
[/ul]
And many more, I'm sure.
<marc>
CajunCenturion
Programmer
Not everyone agrees with the practice:
Lycos
Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
Lycos
Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
I went to the site (not to download the screen saver, but just to get a little more info!!!) and got the following:
Yes, attacking spammers is wrong, you know this, you shouldn't be doing it. Your ip address and request have been logged and will be reported to your ISP for further action.
Also, note: This machine is not hacked, this page is returned for EVERY request. Thanks for noticing though.
CC - your article talks about this, but indicates that the site wasn't hacked, but I couldn't get anything more than this.
Leslie
Yes, attacking spammers is wrong, you know this, you shouldn't be doing it. Your ip address and request have been logged and will be reported to your ISP for further action.
Also, note: This machine is not hacked, this page is returned for EVERY request. Thanks for noticing though.
CC - your article talks about this, but indicates that the site wasn't hacked, but I couldn't get anything more than this.
Leslie
The Ohio House and Senate just passed legislation against spammers. It's sitting on Taft's desk waiting for him to sign it, which he probably will.
I don't think the Lycos system will achieve anything useful. If the government really wanted to stop spam, it would prosecute the coporations that use spam for advertising.
I don't think the Lycos system will achieve anything useful. If the government really wanted to stop spam, it would prosecute the coporations that use spam for advertising.
mrdenny
Programmer
- May 27, 2002
- 11,595
I've red several articles on the net saying that the site was both hacked, and then taking offline by a DDoS attack.
Denny
--Anything is possible. All it takes is a little research. (Me)
(My very old site)
Denny
--Anything is possible. All it takes is a little research. (Me)
(My very old site)
- Thread starter
- #11
According to this link which I don't know anything about by the way, they too received the "hackers'" message.
To me, it looks like that site is/was hacked. I am not going to go check it out though, you know...
This is what they (the "anti-virus people") say:
"We checked the site and it was unavailable and unreachable (now it's running normally again).
So, this looks like some kind of defacement, perhaps from a pro-spam group...they definitely would have a motive to attack the site. Or perhaps it was something else. We can't confirm either way.
PS. seems to be blocking visitors from outside USA, again.
On 30/11/04 At 04:39 PM"
To me, it looks like that site is/was hacked. I am not going to go check it out though, you know...
This is what they (the "anti-virus people") say:
"We checked the site and it was unavailable and unreachable (now it's running normally again).
So, this looks like some kind of defacement, perhaps from a pro-spam group...they definitely would have a motive to attack the site. Or perhaps it was something else. We can't confirm either way.
PS. seems to be blocking visitors from outside USA, again.
On 30/11/04 At 04:39 PM"
More information.
Susan
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example."
Mark Twain, Pudd'nhead Wilson (1894)
Susan
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example."
Mark Twain, Pudd'nhead Wilson (1894)
-
1
- #13
My initial reaction was "hey, this is not a bad idea!” In my book, anything that can take a spammer out of commission can't be all that bad.
We all hate spam, the principle reasons being that it clutters up our inbox's, compromises our productivity and ultimately hits us in the pocket. It forces companies to employ personnel to monitor spam and to purchase hardware and software to combat it. It costs companies money.
Now a possible solution has arrived that will place the spammer (or those who employ them) in our shoes. They will now have to wade through all this crap to perhaps find one or possibly two orders that wont even cover their costs.
Details concerning another persons efforts to combat spammers and scammers can be found here: -
It would appear that such solutions do have an effect, but at what cost?
Recent figures suggest that approximately 70-80% of all email traffic is attributable to spammers. Sorry I can’t substantiate these figures but I am open to correction. This must have an impact on Internet traffic.
Similarly, the makelovenotspam approach will also impact Internet traffic. And if others were to adopt the "drain the spammers bandwidth" approach this could have serious consequences.
I don’t have a solution for the problem but I will pose a couple of suggestions for discussion: -
1. If a company can be identified as having recruited the services of a spammer they should be advised that you will not, under any circumstances, place orders with them for the spammed products, and that if you do need the product you would purchase from their competitor. This would have the effect of letting the company know that their ad campaign is having negative effects and the productivity of their organisation will be affected
2. If a relay server has to read header information in order to transmit email could it be configured to delete known spam?
3. This may be considered to be unethical, but if an unethical solution fixes an unethical problem, is it wrong?
Spammers are known to employ software to find and compromise unsecured machines. Would it be unethical if those opposed to spam were to develop software that would identify such unsecured machines and render them useless to the spammer?
Clearly unsecured machines pose a large problem and the owners are more than likely unaware that their machines are being used in this manner. Such software if developed could operate in a benign manner by leaving a message on the owners desktop or in a brute force manner by closing all open ports on the machine.
I don’t have a solution, but I will help to find one.
Tom.
We all hate spam, the principle reasons being that it clutters up our inbox's, compromises our productivity and ultimately hits us in the pocket. It forces companies to employ personnel to monitor spam and to purchase hardware and software to combat it. It costs companies money.
Now a possible solution has arrived that will place the spammer (or those who employ them) in our shoes. They will now have to wade through all this crap to perhaps find one or possibly two orders that wont even cover their costs.
Details concerning another persons efforts to combat spammers and scammers can be found here: -
It would appear that such solutions do have an effect, but at what cost?
Recent figures suggest that approximately 70-80% of all email traffic is attributable to spammers. Sorry I can’t substantiate these figures but I am open to correction. This must have an impact on Internet traffic.
Similarly, the makelovenotspam approach will also impact Internet traffic. And if others were to adopt the "drain the spammers bandwidth" approach this could have serious consequences.
I don’t have a solution for the problem but I will pose a couple of suggestions for discussion: -
1. If a company can be identified as having recruited the services of a spammer they should be advised that you will not, under any circumstances, place orders with them for the spammed products, and that if you do need the product you would purchase from their competitor. This would have the effect of letting the company know that their ad campaign is having negative effects and the productivity of their organisation will be affected
2. If a relay server has to read header information in order to transmit email could it be configured to delete known spam?
3. This may be considered to be unethical, but if an unethical solution fixes an unethical problem, is it wrong?
Spammers are known to employ software to find and compromise unsecured machines. Would it be unethical if those opposed to spam were to develop software that would identify such unsecured machines and render them useless to the spammer?
Clearly unsecured machines pose a large problem and the owners are more than likely unaware that their machines are being used in this manner. Such software if developed could operate in a benign manner by leaving a message on the owners desktop or in a brute force manner by closing all open ports on the machine.
I don’t have a solution, but I will help to find one.
Tom.
- Thread starter
- #14
CajunCenturion
Programmer
Perhaps the Lycos situation will spur the appropriate law enforcement agencies to do what they're paid to do, and end this mess.
Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
CajunCenturion
Programmer
Now that's a question worthy of disquisition.ttmac said:
Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
mrdenny
Programmer
- May 27, 2002
- 11,595
Would it be unethical, I'd have to say yes. Would it be illegal, again I'd have to say yes. Many states and the US Fed have laws that make it illegal to break into someones computer. Even if the purpose of the break in is to fix a problem, you would still be leaving yourself open to prosecution under these laws.ttmac said:
It wouldn't be to hard to find out who was doing the "fixing" as a "whitehat" you wouldn't be hiding your tracks like a "blackhat" hacker/spammer would be, so it would be fairly easy to track the "fix" back to you.
Denny
--Anything is possible. All it takes is a little research. (Me)
(My very old site)
Yes, many states do have laws that make it illegal to break into someone’s – but what are they doing about it?
If someone breaks into my computer, when (and where) does the crime take place? If a spammer launches some form of program designed to find and compromise a computer when exactly does the crime take place? When the program is launched or when the computer is compromised?
If the crime takes place when the program is launched, would US authorities be able to prosecute if the launch took place in Europe? If it’s when the compromising takes place, could US authorities prosecute someone for compromising a European computer?
If your neighbour has been broken into when they are away and you are found on the premises with a hammer and length of plywood, is it likely that you would be prosecuted for breaking and entering.
Getting back to the relay question I posed above. Consider a spam email that traverses the internet travelling through 5 relays on its route. If the first relay drops the spam there and then you have cut spam email traffic by 80%. But will that slow down the delivery of email? Perhaps yes, but it would be the start of the end of spammers. Would it slow productivity? Perhaps not, it might even improve productivity. How much of a delay would this create? How sooner could you deal with legitimate email if you didn’t have to wade through the valium, soma, viagra, rolex’s and other meds and cheap loans? How much of a delay is your email experiencing at the moment when it is queued behind all that spam?
Yes I know there are those that will say that their spam filters trap most of the stuff. But it still takes time, effort and money. Filters have to be trained and configured and even then you don’t always catch it all.
Then there is the problem of false positives. It always happens when you’re expecting an important email. How much productivity have you now lost?
Apologies for the rambling.
Tom.
If someone breaks into my computer, when (and where) does the crime take place? If a spammer launches some form of program designed to find and compromise a computer when exactly does the crime take place? When the program is launched or when the computer is compromised?
If the crime takes place when the program is launched, would US authorities be able to prosecute if the launch took place in Europe? If it’s when the compromising takes place, could US authorities prosecute someone for compromising a European computer?
If your neighbour has been broken into when they are away and you are found on the premises with a hammer and length of plywood, is it likely that you would be prosecuted for breaking and entering.
Getting back to the relay question I posed above. Consider a spam email that traverses the internet travelling through 5 relays on its route. If the first relay drops the spam there and then you have cut spam email traffic by 80%. But will that slow down the delivery of email? Perhaps yes, but it would be the start of the end of spammers. Would it slow productivity? Perhaps not, it might even improve productivity. How much of a delay would this create? How sooner could you deal with legitimate email if you didn’t have to wade through the valium, soma, viagra, rolex’s and other meds and cheap loans? How much of a delay is your email experiencing at the moment when it is queued behind all that spam?
Yes I know there are those that will say that their spam filters trap most of the stuff. But it still takes time, effort and money. Filters have to be trained and configured and even then you don’t always catch it all.
Then there is the problem of false positives. It always happens when you’re expecting an important email. How much productivity have you now lost?
Apologies for the rambling.
Tom.
-
1
- #20
But Tom, if your email filter and mine "have to be trained and configured and even then you don’t always catch it all", and still experience "the problem of false positives", how do you expect the email relay do do any better? It would have an impossible task identifying messages that could safely be deleted.
The only person who can truly tell which messages you want to read, and which you want to ignore, is you - either directly or with tools you control. I don't think it's desirable or practical to farm that decision out to some remote server.
I'm against this Lycos thing too. It's akin to all the repressive things that our masters are doing to further the "war on terror", and just as counterproductive. Clogging up the world's bandwidth with Denial of Service attacks on "known spammers' sites" (known by whom? on what evidence?) isn't going to empty my intray, just make it load slower.
I'm sure the way to attack spam is to legally attack the companies selling the advertised products. If they're based somewhere in a relevant jurisdiction, laws could be passed to attack them. If they're operating from elsewhere, we need to look at ways to make it difficult for them to collect money for their wares. If spam can be made to be a less profitable propostion we're on the road to beating it.
-- Chris Hunt
Webmaster & Tragedian
Extra Connections Ltd
The only person who can truly tell which messages you want to read, and which you want to ignore, is you - either directly or with tools you control. I don't think it's desirable or practical to farm that decision out to some remote server.
I'm against this Lycos thing too. It's akin to all the repressive things that our masters are doing to further the "war on terror", and just as counterproductive. Clogging up the world's bandwidth with Denial of Service attacks on "known spammers' sites" (known by whom? on what evidence?) isn't going to empty my intray, just make it load slower.
I'm sure the way to attack spam is to legally attack the companies selling the advertised products. If they're based somewhere in a relevant jurisdiction, laws could be passed to attack them. If they're operating from elsewhere, we need to look at ways to make it difficult for them to collect money for their wares. If spam can be made to be a less profitable propostion we're on the road to beating it.
-- Chris Hunt
Webmaster & Tragedian
Extra Connections Ltd
- Status
Similar threads
