Space before does not work for first line on page

[nstikker]

Hi, I hope I'm able to explain my problem...

I make reports with lots of chapters in CS3. I want to have the chapter name a few cm lower on a page. So I import my Word doc and convert my Word-paragraph style (Chaptername) to my appropriate CS3-paragraph style (CS3-chaptername). CS3-chaptername has a space before of 15 mm. But my chapter names still start at the top of the page. Only when I place a hard return bofore the chapter name does it get the space before that I want. Why?

Of course adding a few hard returns is not that difficult, but when I add 'start on next page' (or 'start on odd page' for a double sided report) to my paragraphstyle CS3-chaptername, placing the hard return will just insert a blank page and move my chapter name to the top of yet another new page.

Any ideas?

 

[eugenetyson]

Space before really only works with paragraphs, in that the Space Before has to have a pargraph above it. If that makes sense.

Think if you had a paragraph of text with a space before it, and that went onto the next page, it wouldn't make sense that there would bea blank space above it, but because there is no paragraph above it it won't add a space before, that way it keeps your paragraphs across pages lined up.

What you need to do for the first page in a chapter is to add in a place that the text starts.

You this by going to Object>Text Frame Options.

On General you could insert a space at the top of the frame to the desired depth.

Or on the Baseline options you can choose the desired depth that that the first baseline (the bottom of the text) will sit.

Keep in mind, General option will push the text down from the top of the letters.

The Baseline option will tell the Text Frame where the first Baseline (the bottom of the text, excluding descenders) are to sit.

This setting will only be specific to that text frame.

Usually for a page that starts a chapter I have different Master Page, and usually I have a text frame with the correct text frame settings applied for the first page of all my chapters, and that too of the last pages of the chapter (I like the last page of the chapter to look a little different than the rest of the pages, that's just me though).

 

[nstikker]

Thanks Eugene. It does make sense now. I was hoping I could avoid using the text frame options or the different master page, because I often have to deal with revisions, where text is added or deleted. Then my chapter page is somewhere else and text on a normal page suddenly starts low because it's on a chapter master page or in a text frame with a different first baseline (hmm, that sounds more confusing then it really is). I was hoping this could go automatically somehow. Until Adobe comes up with a solution for this (it seems like a useful feature to me) I will go for the chapter-master page solution.

 

[eugenetyson]

You could make an object style and insert the option there, then when there is a chapter start you just change the text frame to that object style, you could even apply a shortcut for it.

I would recommend though that you split your book into chapters, each chapter being a different document. You can then use the Book Panel to combine your documents.

If you need instructions on this let me know. It makes it easier for working with books or long documents.

 

[nstikker]

Thanks, I will look in to the 'book-function'.

Meanwhile I came up with a solution that will probably scare "you know what" out of any real editor: after each chapter name you add a single space. You make this space a 100 pt and voilá, your chapter name drops a few cm on the page and as long as you add 'start on next page' to the paragraph style of your chapter name, it stays in the right place even when you delete or add a few pages of text.

Perhaps it's a recipe for disaster (or perhaps not), but I thought I suggest it here anyhow. It might be just the solution somebody is looking for.

 

[eugenetyson]

Yes, seems a bit of a non-technical workaround. I would suggest that you apply the space after the text though, because if you were to come back to it later and center it, then it includes the space at the start, but won't if the space(s) are at the end of the text.

Also, if I was given that book to finish off, for whatever reason, one of the Clean Ups I do before starting any work is to look for spaces at the start of a sentence and remove them.

So just be careful about that, perhaps use an en-space or em-space for it, or a non-breaking space.

That would mean a normal space would not be included in your heading and potentially cause nightmares down the road.

If you're happy with your workaround then that's great!

 

[nstikker]

I just had a little test ride with it. It works like a charm. You make a characterstyle (say, chaptername-space and give it 100 pt). Once you have your text in place, you search and replace: find a ^p (paragraphstyle: CS3-chaptername) and replace it with space^p (characterstyle: chaptername-space). Replace all. Now all your chapter names drop lower on your page. Nice thing is that when you show your hidden characters (alt-ctrl-i), the hard returns (now 100 pt) after your chapter names light up like crazy. That makes it easier for somebody else to understand what's happening in your document, I think.

Btw, I do think it's worth to have a look at your suggestions about Em-spaces and such to prevent nightmares and I will. But for now, I'm very happy with this and probably will sleep terrific tonight

Thanks a lot for your advise!

 

[eugenetyson]

Alternatively you could have just made the paragraph return at the end of the chapter name a massive size, that would work too, if the leading is set to auto.

 

[nstikker]

Indeed it does. It's getting better all the time!

 

[eugenetyson]

Now all you have to do is automate that.

You select the Paragraph Style for the Chapter heading.

In the options.

Drop Caps and Nested Style.

Make a new nested style

Insert in the first line, None UP to Paragraph Return

Next line, [The character style you created for you large font size] through 1 paragraph return.


Now you don't have to manually select the paragraph return and size it. It will change by itself.

 

[nstikker]

Sounds great, but I must admit the 'Drop caps and nested styles' is undocumented territory for me. And the natives speak Dutch, while the map you made is in English

Now let's see: I created a new nested style and can change 4 settings for it (I'll try to translate):
1) the character style - I choose [None]
2) range - I can choose between Up to and including and Maximum
3) number - I can type a number (default is 1)
4) Don't know how to call this one - I can choose between 15 different things like: Sentences, Words, Characters, Character end nested style, Forced end of line etc.

So, what do I choose? Your Up to sounds more logical then the Up to and including I can choose. Is it somehow the same? The Paragraph return (= hard return?) you mention is something different then 'my' Forced end of line (= shift hard return to my knowledge). But I can't choose Paragraph return.

 

[eugenetyson]

You'll have to experiment. Nested styles are cool, play with them and you'll see how handy they are.

http://creativebits.org/indesign/indesign_nested_styles