Running Cat5e, Tele, cable wires problem? 2

[Guest_imported]

I'm in the process of running my Cat5e, Tele, cable box wires. I read somewhere that you can not run certain wires next to each other casue it will make problems. Is there any truth to this? Also once I bring in the wires to my home, Ex: Broadband, whats the Max distance I can have between the entry point from house to my cable modem, so not to have slow down? And when I run my cat5e cable from my router, whats the Max distance to each computer? Thanks for the time.


Brian K

 

[wybnormal]

Absolutely... the new word of the day is crosstalk.. either caused by noise ( RFI) or too much signal next to a weak signal. You should not run power lines next to your data without some separation. There is a spec on it but I Dont recall the actual distance. The same goes for hanging data cables over floresence lights, AC units, bigger UPSs and so on. I found a problem once where the client ran data cables on top of the VoiceMail UPS and power distribution center.. the one with the BIG decal about not getting too close with anything with a mag strip.

I would not think telco wiring would cause too much trouble unless you split pairs in the same cable.

The slowness on your cable would be more from your neighbors then the distance of the cable. Cable is shared like traditional ethernet.. the more that play, the slower it goes.

MikeS

MikeS "Diplomacy; the art of saying 'nice doggie' till you can find a rock" Wynn Catlin

 

[MWM]

Scan2000
Max distance from the Minimum Point of Entry (MPOE) or Demarcation Point--the grey box on the side of your garage, usually--is the point dividing outside wire from inside wire. It gets there through ordinary telephone cable, usually. This cable comes from the telephone company Central Office (CO) which is often thousands of feet. So, extending the cable from that point to a point inside your house to the dsl modem is a trivial additional distance.

CATV cable of course is sourced from a local amplifier on a telephone pole or buried, but usually hits the house at a nominal zero db. Likewise extending this using quality coax and trying not to go below -12 db, say, (add the loss thru splitters) should not be a problem.

From the dsl/cable modem we have real ethernet, and that cable limitation is 100 meters or about 324 feet. Usually not a problem for a home. Again, quality cable here. You might try to get your cable from a telecom source, such as Greybar. The Radio Shack and Home Depot and Fry's stuff is readily available and cheap but not at all the best.

You might try for a major name brand. CAT 3 for voice is now the federal (yes, federal) minimum, because it will allow for broadband access, which, as a matter of public policy is desired. CAT 5e for data. (Most people say try not to split the data and use it for both data and voice.)

If your home is under construction, it is easy and cheap to put in more than enough--now. Later its very inconvenient.

Best

 

[vaoldschl]

Good info from both here, power is definitely what you want to avoid in running your cable; putting a voice and a data cable next to each other shouldn't cause any problems and 324 feet is your max just be sure to include all cable segments in that measurement, patch from router, horizontal cable, and patch to computer. As for quality cable, definitely seek that out, I run CAT5e for voice and data, it costs a dollar more for a 1000 ft and if you ever need to change a connection from voice to data you have the cable in place to do so.

 

[Guest_imported]

Hey guys, thanks for the help. One more thing, seeing that there should be no porblem running my tele, cat5, cable lines together. Can I also use those spiffy gang boxes to bring all the connections together?



Thanks again,

 

[vaoldschl]

That's what I do; single gang, flush mount box with faceplates and different color jacks to identify wire type. Double gang if you need more than six jacks in one location. Just get the low-voltage type, they're cheaper. In new construction I also run PVC in the wall so that if I need to add connections later I can just snake it.

 

[brbaldwin]

Good info from all here, so I'll just add some "source" advice. If you have a couple of days you might want to check out milestek.com and order supplies through them. If you don't mind using a credit card you can have everything shipped directly - even overnight if you want to pay a little extra. I've found Milestek to be among the lowest cost on cable, jacks, faceplates, even tools (e.g., electrician's scissors for $5 - their regular price). They also carry a big variety of video/audio cable supplies.

 

[MasterRacker]

Check out

http://cim.pennnet.com/home.cfm

which is the on-line version of Cabling Installation and Maintenance Magazine.
Jeff

I haven't lost my mind - I know it's backed up on tape somewhere ....

 

[wybnormal]

I've used milestek with good luck. They have some niffy cable labels I like and could not find almost anywhere else in small amounts. You can scribble on them with a sharpie and then wrap the label around it's self so there is a clear covering over the writing.

MikeS
"Diplomacy; the art of saying 'nice doggie' till you can find a rock" Wynn Catlin

 

[VSATECH]

If you must exceed 150' of coax, I recommend RG11. Also keep in mind that satellite antenna runs typically have 13 to 18 vdc present, so parallel runs of cat5 could suffer EMI. NEC requires 4" seperation between comm cables and electrical service cables.

 

[daronwilson]

Lots of good ideas. I wasn't aware that there was actually a standard for cat 3 that was a federal minimum, who enforces that?

We routinely run cat5 for phone, cat5e for data and RG6QS for broadband/CATV in the same bundles with no problem. I suppose it is possible to get some EMI from the DC voltage on the coax, but I think the shield is at ground potential and wouldn't provide any problem.

Sounds like you are well on the way to getting your wiring in place.

Good Luck! It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[fs483]

How is RG11 different than say RG6 dual shield and RG6 quad shield. Is it a lot thicker ? I am in the process of replacing my old RG59 with RG6 as I need to update my wiring. I have some noise on my CATV line, luckly I not too picky of video quality as long there's no snow on TV. I guess it doesn't help when the CATV provider does 3 splits from the line that comes to my house. They only brought one line to my building. Then from there, they put a 3 way splitter. 2 drops go to my tenant who hooked up at least 2 tvs and one cable modem. Then the other drop comes to me. My setup is pretty complicated but it works. I pass the line through a surge suppressor with coax input. Then split the signal into two 20dB amp with single outputs. Then from 1 of the 20dB amp, I run a 50 foot RG6 to a three way splitter with feeds to 2 VHS and one tv. The second 20dB amp feeds a 2 way splitter. One drop runs around 50 feet on RG6 to another vcr. The second drop goes around 30 feet on RG59 to a 10dB 4 way amp. One drop of the 4 way amp goes to another VCR, a second drop goes for 60 feet on RG6 to my TV tuner. The image is pretty good, no snow but I do sometimes get a very light black band that goes up my screen/TV. Again, all of my long wiring is RG6 but there only on part of RG59 that I cannot change unless I reopen my ceilings. I tried every single combination possible to try to eliminate the noise on the line but I'm not able, and unfortunately, the only RG59 part is bundled with 3 15 amp circuits and a 20 amp/220v circuit. Althought theses circuits are barely used, they are probably causing some problems. I guess I have to live with this setup. At least I got good crimp connectors on each end of my wires. The only thing that annoys me a bit are two unused outputs on my 4-way amp... I doubt puttings caps on it will solve my problem. The only thing left to do is try to see if I have enough signal strengh to add a cable modem. If so, I'll cancel my DSL... I'll have to wait to borrow my neighbors Cable modem to test my line when I have time. Can anyone suggest a better solution ?

I was wondering can RFI from a drop pass through a amplifier and back to the CATV feed ? Obviously the RFI will affect everything downward from the source of noise but I will it pass through a amplifier ?

anthony

 

[VSATECH]

Derrin,
The ground shield is only as good as the grounding, and as a matter of I have observed the ground source to be an extreme noise factor in alot of instances, not only that, but even routing comm. cable near a ground source can more often than not induce alot whole lot of NOISE.

 

[daronwilson]

Bootleg - your system doesn't sound too good to me. Adding amplifiers in series like that, and especially if they are cheap amplifiers, could cause more noise on your system. In theory, you should provide the amplification that you need at the source. You should be able to distribute cable all over your house and not have enough loss to cause much of a problem. Anyway, RG11 is larger diameter yes, and less lossy. You should be able to easily push 150-200 feet on RG6 unless you are using some real high frequency signals which would be more lossy. Keep in mind, each 2 way splitter cuts the signal in half. A 3db drop is a loss of 1/2 of the signal strength. For the most part, you can draw this all out and add/subtract gain/loss in DB and see how you are doing. For example, if we just ASSUME that you have 0 dB coming in, you split it (-3db) you throw a 20 dB amplifier in (+17), you run 100 feet of coax at (-10dB@250Mhz) (+7), you should have more signal here than what you started with. But, throw in more splitters and such and you can easily drop things down below what you need for quality signals.

SO, be sure to use RG6 as a minimum everywhere, RG11 perhaps if you have very long runs, try not to cascade splitters if you can help it, make sure splitters are good to at least 1000 Mhz, use quality connectors (generally no twist on or hex crimp fittings) and get a quality amplifier (non-radioshack). I usually use holland or channelplus personally.

I don't know of any maximum distance from the DMARK to your equipment. For cable, the determining factor is signal strength, plain and simple. You need to know what your cable modems requirement for signal and give it that. Here in Charter country, at first they thought the modems had to be hit pretty hot, so we were splitting the drop when it first came into the house and sending one leg directly to the modem and the other leg to feed the house. After a few months they determined the modem did not like that much signal and they were back dropping 10dB pads in each modem circuit to get them to function better. Keep in mind that your cable modem is bi-directional, so anything in the circuit (amplifiers) will need to be bi-directional as well to get your signal pushed back to the cable company. Check with your provider.

For your Cat5e, the ethernet standard limits you to 100 meters (328 feet) for any circuit. In practical applications, I try to stay under 300 feet and not push it.

VSATECH - I'm sure not going to tell you there no such thing as noise on a ground conductor, but if you are picking up noise on your grounding conductor you likely have some other building wiring problems. Running cables next to a ground conductor should put you at the same potential as running cables in the dirt (ground). However if you are in doubt, it is should be simple enough to separate the coax from the Cat5e until you get to the outlet and everyone can be happy. Of course making sure the coax is grounding with a grounding block as it enters the building is a good idea too.

Good Luck! It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[fs483]

Daron,

I had originally tried putting my third amp (the one in series) at the source but the signal wasn`t strong enough on the longest run. Since I wasn't able to put in a home run for to the longest drop, I had to put in a splitter which was fed through a RG59 cable bundled (litteraly taped together) to a few electrical circuits from the source. I found and old 4 way amp so I swapped it with my splitter and that's how I got the signal to the longest drop. I studied in electronics (mostly instrumentation and controls) but I did remember from my old analog classes that amps amplified any noise making it even worse which explains why to have amps at the source avoiding any noise. As for splitters I did a few searches on the net and did indeed come up with a few charts for dB loses due to splitters, cable type and length. Since I don't have any way to measure the signal strenght from the feed (making the calculations not that reliable), I have to rely on carrying a small portable TV to different locations. I guess I'll pretty much stay with my current setup. Like I said, I'm too picky on video quality and the black band is only visible sometimes.

On a 4 way 10dB amp, do each of the 4 outputs have a full 10dB or is the 10dB shared between the 4 outputs ?

thanks

anthony

 

[daronwilson]

You LOSE 10 dB on each port, so they really cost you signal. Sounds like you are doing the right things. Since you can't measure the signal, if you want to do the calcs, just make sure the overall drop to each set from the Dmarc is very small. Of course it is all theory, and your individual mileage may vary. Crappy connectors, RG59, etc. can cause you more loss. Of course the proof of the entire system is the picture (or modem).

Good Luck! It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[telecomgeekO]

Bootleg,

From the dmarc, there is a 3 way splitter--2 legs to your renter, and one leg to your house- Have you checked the splitter, because there will be 2 -7db ports, and 1 -3.5 db port. Your leg should be on the -3.5.

Also, is there a reason for having legs going to 4 vcrs and 2 televisions. Could you reduce 2 legs by daisy chaining 2 tvs/2 vcr's togehter?

RG 6 is definitely the way to go, if you dont have attic access, do you have a crawl space, or can you route cable along the eave of house?

Idea on cable modem-- Have you considered sharing a cable bill and running a Cat5 cable from neighbors to your pc--using a cheap router would provide the capability and save you an additional 50 bucks a month.

 

[fs483]

telecomgeekO,

I'll have to check the splitter on my wall to see if there are ports with different dB levels. I wanted to untangle my CATV feed from the electrical lines hoping to improve the signal but I couldn't. When I last climbed up there a year ago, I discovered that the cable company used silicone around the connectors to prevent water and humidity from entering the connector so I didn't want to remove that. The tangled wire didn't seem to disturb the last couple cable guys when they passed by for other problems. What should I do once I find out. I don't want to play around outside and mess up my tenant's connection !

As for the VCRS, two of them are at the same location (one above the other) and two other ones are in two other rooms. I can't daisy chain them because I want the flexibility to record 2 different channels and be able to watch another one. I don't have much time to watch tv when the shows play and when I do have time, they always play at the same time ! Each of my floors are covered with ceramic tiles and even worse, the baseboard which is normally in wood is in ceramic in my house. No attic and no unfinished basement. I'm the landlord so they put the good stuff in my apartment. The partition walls all have cross studs. Most of the ceilings are finished using stucco with a special texture which only the original person who did it(22 years ago) knows how to do so I can't mess that up.

Here's basically my setup.

Again, the CATV Feed is
1-tangled with my electrical supply (enough for 4
apartments),
2-already when through a 3 way splitter before it reaches
my apartment

|-50'RG6- |TV Tuner
|--50'RG59--10dB Amp 4 output$-TV-VCR3
| |-Unused
/-20dB Amp-*--50'RG6--VCR3-TV --Unused
CATV Feed-*
\-20dB Amp--50'RG6--*--VCR1
|--VCR2-TV

The * represents a 2-way splitter
The $ represents a 10 dB amp with 4 outputs

The problems :

1-when VCR2 is turned on, TV attached to it has snow,
the tuner inside the TV needs a very high input level
2-tv attached to VCR3 has little snow on some channels
(constant)
3-tv tuner has rolling black band going from bottom of the
screen to top of the screen
4-unable to replace the RG59, and it't bundled with 1 RG58
(previous old coax network when hubs, utp where very
expensive), 3 120v15amp circuits and 220v20amp circuit.

Since my TV tuner is feed by the RG59, that is probably the source of the interference. The 220v circuit will eventually supply the air conditionner when I get a bigger one. One of the 120v circuit supplies 3 pumps for the aquarium and I know the motors generate a lot of noise. The other 120v supplies my current air conditionner and the last one is unused.

The 20dB amp that supplies VCR1 and VCR2 is an old one. The other 20dB amp is a black Levithon amp brand new and the last 4 way 10db amp is by Recotron also new. BTW what does the FM filter switch on the amps do ?

As for the cable modem, yeah I guess I can try to share it through a router with my neighbor. I don't like sharing at that level, who becomes resposible for problems, legal, privacy reasons. I already have a router supplying my DSL internet through my whole house but I don't want to run a cable between the two apartments (again very complicated) and I don't believe in wireless. Since each floor is in ceramic tiles and I have big open rooms, there are a few "I" or "H" beams with a few inches of concrete to support the tiles. Also, the ceilings are at different levels because of the plumbing for the washrooms and kitchens. And above that, I have very high tension wires running nearby causing a lot of interference and did I mention Dorval Airport and the trains that pass near by! Just to give you an idea, I get very low reception with my cell phone in and around my house, my old RC cars would become posessed and have a mind of their own because of the interferences. I've tested those wireless products at work and have mixed results.

I'm already pretty proud of how I managed to run all my alarm wires, network, cable and electrical wires all within the walls very rarely going above the baseboards. Unfortunately, the paths within the walls are all the same.

The only two solutions left is either to renovate my whole house and know down all the walls and redo everything, probably in the range of 30 to 40 thousand dollars or to sell the whole damn building (which I prefer). I don't have the cash to renovate and my parents don't want to sell so I pretty much stuck !

I hope I didn't bore you with my ranting...

Anthony.

 

[daronwilson]

Yeah, your situation sounds grim. But I can tell you that the FM filter switch basically notches out the FM band so you aren't amplifing that, only the tv channels.

Good Luck It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[telecomgeekO]

Bootleg,

How many cable drops are inside your interior walls? Also, are you a paying cable subscriber? If you are, I would call the cable company to check the db levels at the dmarc. Have the cable guy run a r6 leg from dmarc to your first split in attic. Also the c.c. should provide you your own feed (not just a leg off a splitter).