Repartitioning and clusters on an existing 10 GB HDD? 2

[TekTippy4U]

As I was involved in the Win9x Desktop software forum....
I raised the following question to another member in the thread....who suggested I start a new thread here......so I will, as I think the answers will spawn some learning...
...(We were both replying to a thread concerning Repartitioning an existing 10 GB HDD)which has data that needed to be saved and creating 2 partitions on the HDD instead of just the 1 existing partition.....PC is Win 98 SE

In thinking of the possible partition sizes(never mentioned in orig. thread)....oh,...say 7 GB + 3 GB = 10 GB

Do you know if it's possible to set the cluster size "PER" Partition.....I know it can be done per disc through the format utility..? (I assume it's automatic, once the partition size is set)......My concern here is the 4kb clusters, that this user may end up with(if they do a backup and try to reload the saved files after creating 2 partitions).........usually associated with Fat32 on smaller older drives.....I believe the appropriate limit for 4kb clusters is 8 GB....which may cause a problem *without* a utility like partition magic......because the hard drive right now is probably using 8kb clusters.....info which can be found out quite easily.....with "CHKDSK".....
Wouldn't the different cluster sizes conflict...especially when using a Win utility such as ScanDisk...?
Just curious...

 

[Dreamland]

The Win 98SE (DOS 7.x) FORMAT will *only* format partitions on a hard drive. It has no concept of formatting "the entire drive" (except for floppies and such) - you must have partitions designated first by FDISK or whatever before it's possible to use DOS FORMAT on them. You can build a single partition the size of the whole disk to begin with, but you're still formatting a partition - not the disk itself. You must/can only partition a raw space on a disk, and you must/can only format an entire partition into file space.

Older versions of FORMAT, or partitions less than 256MB will default to the FAT16 file system and corresponding FAT16 default cluster sizes based on partition size. However, if you are using the Win98 - DOS 7.x version of format, then you *can* specify the cluster size during FORMAT with the /Z:n switch where n is the (power of 2) number of 512-byte hard disk sectors in a logical cluster.

You may really not need to worry about any of this. Depending on which type of backup program your using, you'll end up with 1) either a full-partition 'restore' which replaces all of the existing file system/cluster size, or 2) capabilities for a file-by-file restore, which will migrate the backed-up files to whatever the partition is using for it's existing file system/cluster size. Restore programs won't attempt to half-change the existing logical file structures on the partition with their own, nor will they blindly load their files on to an incompatible file system or cluster size without translation.

Note that I'm using the terms file system/cluster size together. The file allocation table is based on the cluster size, and both are configured together when the partition is formatted. If you use a utility like PartitionMagic to change the cluster size, it will also need to change the entire file allocation table to reflect the new file locations.

Backup programs that use the replace-everything option will warn you that all existing files will be overwritten. They will either totally replace the old file system/cluster size, or else translate *all* of the restored files to the in-place file system/cluster size. Sometimes they also require the partition to be sized identical to the original backed up partition, but not always. The old DOS BACKUP/RESTORE was like this.

If you can get any of the later versions of GHOST (separate or as part of Norton Utilities), then you'll have all the capabilities you're likely to need. The DOS version has a mouse-aware GUI and can restore by file, directory, partition or entire hard disk from/to any file system or any size partition. GHOST 2003 will even create bootable restore disks or burn backup CD-ROMs with the backup files *along with* a copy of GHOST itself. Totally self-contained backups.

If you even just use a file-based method (like PKZIP) then the program itself will align restored files properly using whatever file system/cluster size you have - no need to 'match' anything beforehand. Programs like CHKDSK and SCANDISK automatically detect the file system/cluster size and base their checks on that information. For the partition size you're concerned with, you really don't need to worry about things not working because of a different file system/cluster size. The only exception I might caution you about is certain goofy copy-protection schemes on some games/programs that are tied to a physical sector (CrypKey schemes use this method).

DOS or third-party backup and restore programs will probably work, but you need to understand how each does it's backup/restore if you need to keep some files already on a partition or the target partition is a different size than the original. Even in these cases, the file system/cluster size is rarely the issue, so I wouldn't bother trying to 'match' either one when you do the initial format. If the restore requires an identical-sized partition to restore to, then it's probably going to blow away files, file system or cluster size used to format the new partition anyway.

 

[TekTippy4U]

Dreamland

Thanks for all that info......

I can't believe I just ACCIDENTALLY wiped out a long reply with questions and explanations.........Son of B*(#$*.....

anyway.....this'll be brief cause now i'm pee ooooddd.....

.....do you think an ideal setup for a 9.1GB Western Dig. HDD......which needs win NT device drivers......and is a dual boot capable machine......should be......

C:\ 2GB FAT16....WINNT
D:\ 7.1GB FAT32......WIN98

TIA...

TT4U

 

[Dreamland]

Works for me, but I'm a partition freak. I generally go overboard with partitions, dedicating one for each O/S, one for a common SWAP/TEMP space, one for programs, one for everything IE related, one for documents/data/mail and a couple at the end for archive and backup. This is overkill for most people and would be difficult to manage in your case on a 9 Gig drive -and/or- without dynamic partitioning s/w like PartitionMagic.

About the only thing I might split and add to yours is one more compressed 4GB partition at the end of the disk for 'programs' and try to keep the Win98 system files isolated in the middle 3GB. SCANDISK and DEFRAG run faster on the smaller partitions and the FATs are smaller/faster. Program files are fairly static and don't need to be taking up the 'faster' 3GB of disk in the middle. You can back up the programs after loading and selectively (temporarily) blow them away if you need space in a hurry. Since the settings are all on the system partition, you don't need to run through installation again - just restore that program's directory back on the 'programs' partition and run like normal. Windowz is none the wiser (unless you forget and attempt to run the program before reloading).

Again, no particularly compelling reason to go partition-crazy. The performance increase probably isn't even measureable. Your two are fine if you want to keep it simple.

 

[TekTippy4U]

Thank You very much for you're input and suggestions.......
as I really appreciate a detailed reply.....
and I'll soak it up over a couple of readings....


TT4U

 

[edfair]

I would add one other partition at the end for install stuff to keep it separate from normal use.
I don't consider myself a partition freak but I do set the working computers up with either 2 or 3 available with a boot manager and load the OS from a mutually accessable drive in the extended partition. And there are 2 or 3 data partitions in extended that I keep kind of in parallel with the boot partition but it is visible and usable to the other boots if I need it.
Don't neccessarily suggest any one else do it this way, but it works for me considering that I blow away sections at a time for various reasons.

Ed Fair
Any advice I give is my best judgement based on my interpretation of the facts you supply. Help increase my knowledge by providing some feedback, good or bad, on any advice I have given.

 

[TekTippy4U]

Thanks Edfair for the info.....

I'm going to mull over yours and dreamland's info and try to apply it to what I know (just a tad confusing for me)....as to where I should put what.....:>)........then come back (not for a little while) for some more specific questions about how I may set up my sys for me.........

thanks again
TT4U