Reference letter 1

[Schumber]

Guys,
I have been applying for IT jobs in several local autorities (Council IT jobs) for several months. Although I do have many years of good experience and my skills fits most of these jobs I have applied for, I never got an interview. The only thing that I can think is that one of my previous employers is giving not satisfactory reference about me. Is there anything I can do to check if it is the case ?

Thanks
Eric

 

[jrbarnett]

Firstly, I would contact your referees to ask if they have been approached for a reference.
If not, it is probably just that there are many applicants for the job and yours didn't get as far as the interview stage.
You don't say where you are based, but in the UK and USA, the IT job market is not buoyant at the moment, and as a result there are large numbers of qualified, experienced IT workers out of a job.

John

 

[DrJavaJoe]

You could have a friend call your references acting as a potential employer and see what kind of feed back they are giving. Many companies refer reference calls directly to human resources where only general information is given rather than 'Eric is the man, greatest IT person ever, you've got to hire this guy'. So you may not be getting negative references but not so positive ones.

 

[chiph]

In the US, the general thing that happens when giving out reference info, is the caller only gets employment verification: "Yes, Bob worked here from April 1996 to March 1998".

For fear of litigation, they won't give anything else out: "Bob insulted the CEO's wife at the annual Christmas party. On the days he could be persuaded to drag his sorry a** out of bed, he was usually to be found with a bottle next to his keyboard. He also started his own business -- selling the contents of our supply room on eBay".
;-)

Chip H.


If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[DrJavaJoe]

Come on Chip, we all know Bob is really Chip, Right.

 

[Schumber]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys.
Perhaps like jrbarnett said, the IT job market is not so favorable these days. Well, in my last job I did ask for a reference letter (I live in UK but I was working in Germany) and the HR boss told me to write the letter and ask for my line manager to approve it. So I did a very nice letter of reference to myself Surprisely, they did not change a single word and the company's HR director has signed it. I am sure I did not wrong while working for this company and if they are somehow giving bad references about me then I dont know why they gave an excellent reference letter. When I left another company before this one, I asked again for a reference letter. This time they said it was company's police not supply any letter to any employee.
Even letter/calls asking for reference would be limited to things like chiph said they do in US: "Yes, Eric worked here from April 1996 to March 1998 as systems analyst. Thats all". In both companies I resigned. Now I regret that so much
Hey chiph, that thing about ebay and xmas pary were really funny
Thanks again,
Eric

 

[rosieb]

Schumber

If you're applying to UK councils, they're unlikely to take up references before interview. The jobs do tend to get a lot of applicants. If you're qualified, it may just be a question of technique in completing the application form.

They usually use a scoring system based on the person specification, rather than the job description. Most application forms have a section like "relevant skills" or "why are you applying for this job". In these it is important to address each item in the person spec, showing how you fit their criteria or offering a close alternative. Spell it out for them. You have to make it easy for them to give you a high score.

A lot of applications ignore this and are rejected because essential requirements aren't explicitly covered.

Best of luck

Rosie

 

[chiph]

Come on Chip, we all know Bob is really Chip, Right.

I swear I didn't know she was his wife.


;-) ;-)

Rosieb has a good point -- if you don't give them what they want on the job application, they're likely to interpret that as inability to follow simple directions. It's in the same category as mispelled words on your CV/Resume -- shows inattention to detail.

Chip H.


If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[SQLSister]

Government apps are always hard no matter what the government. You need to be much more detailed than in a corporate environment. My resume is 2 pages long and covers 25 years. When I last worked for the government, my 171 form was 31 pages long and covered only 14 years. Be very specific when applying for government jobs and remeber those buzz words, the HR people have no idea what an IT person actually does, they knock you out as unqualified if you don;t have the proper buzzwords. And I do mean that .net experience would not mean vb.net to an HR person and Microsoft Office does not mean you can use Word!

 

[bi]

Unfortunately, SQLSister, having to use precise buzzwords to get your resume past the HR person applies not just in government, but in corporations (large and small) as well as technical recruiting firms (who should know better!). And, you are right: they don't know what we do.

 

[Schumber]

Perhaps there is nothing wrong with my references. As you said, the problem lies in how I describe my skills for a given position. I had the wrong impression that by being over qualified for a position, I mean, giving emphasis to extra skills, I would have much more chances of getting the job. Also I had the perception that CV/resume were first screened by a technical guy before going to HR hands.
Thanks Chip, Rosieb and SQLSister.

rgds,
Eric

 

[paul172]

I can confirm that NHS, councils etc in the UK check references after the interview stages.

 

[Georgi1chuikov]

In the US a bad reference from a former employer would make a lawyer jump for joy over the money they will earn by making it so you do not have to work for the rest of your life. It is almost that bad. It doesn't matter if you where fired for commiting a capital crime/felony to the company. You ABSOLUTLY cannot state anything except for start/end date and (maybe this changed, but it used to be like this) Ending salary. A company I worked for ended up paying a big lawsuit to a former employee that went to jail for a few years for theft/ check fraud. She was coniving enough to list the company she got convicted of stealing from as a reference and that company owner was stupid enough to be honest.

 

[BakeMan]

Georgi1chuikov

I believe these laws differ from state to state, but they are as you described in my state (Virginia). I worked for some time as a manger for a retail chain and we were given extensive training in this manner. We were told exactly what we could and could not say (basically the same as above). It became clear after a few hiring experiences however that this was plenty of information to make a decision. The laws do not state that an employer could not write a positive recommendation letter for the employee and I don't recall ever hearing of someone suing for receiving a positive reference over the phone. So, if you call for a reference and only receive the standard... They started on such and such, ended on such and such, and were paid such and such. You could assume this as a negative reference. If you still had questions you could ask the prospective employee for a written reference from the company in question and then follow up on any that was provided.

Just my two cents on the matter

BAKEMAN

 

[SQLSister]

BAkeMan, I disagree with your premise. If you work for a company that only allows the standard and you provide more, you could get fired, so many people will not provide more even if they want to. You are probably eliminating good people unfairly. Also, in todays changing world, many past employers may not even have the same managers there anymore and nobody knows what your performance was or all such inquiries are directed to HR specifically to prevent people from doing what you just stated, providing a reference that is positive for people you like and and only the standard for everyone else.

 

[BakeMan]

SQLSister

I agree with your assessment. I was probably weeding out qualified candidates based on incorrect assumptions.

But... unfortunately that is sometimes the only way to weed through the stack. As a hiring manager you must use some criteria for narrowing the field even if it sometimes proves to be arbitrary.

once again... my two cents.

BAKEMAN

 

[ecobb]

But... unfortunately that is sometimes the only way to weed through the stack. As a hiring manager you must use some criteria for narrowing the field even if it sometimes proves to be arbitrary.

I thought that's what the interview was for.




Hope This Helps!

Ecobb

"Alright Brain, you don't like me, and I don't like you. But lets just do this, and I can get back to killing you with beer." - Homer Simpson

 

[BakeMan]

Yes, an interview will help you make the final decision, but there is not enough hours in the day to interview everyone who applies. Your resume/CV and references will help make the first cut.

BAKEMAN

 

[DrJavaJoe]

In reviewing potential new employees I better get a phone number of a person that will say something nice about John or Jane Doe. I realize it might have to be a personal reference but they should make an effort to make one of those personal references an old co-worker or boss. I want to speak to someone who says, yeah I used to work with Bob, great guy wish he was still here.

 

[Georgi1chuikov]

DrJava Joe
Actually, many companies in my state prohibit anyone else except for HR to give any reference whatsoever. If you where a manager would you risk your job to give this verbal review? Nowadays normaly the prospective employee gets a batery of personality tests, honesty tests, credit check and a criminal history. In the long run this is a small price to pay for the lack of exposure to these draconian civil liability laws concerning reference and they tend to be a more objective means of assesment. Also,I could give you my moms name as a former co-worker and you would not know the difference, therefore, "the shining review" in the case I outlined you would get your "person that will say something nice about John or Jane Doe"