recycled recycle symbol? 2

[lionelhill]

Gazing at my screen I notice that the side of the desktop "bin" has little green arrows on it, very reminiscent of the German "Gruene Punkt" recycling symbol, which of course may only be printed on packaging that is in some way environmentally friendly. It is a symbol with a definite meaning.

In fact, come to think of it, the "refresh" button on some versions of internet explorer has a similar air.

Although I'm sure there was no ill intent in the first place, this seems to me to be hijacking a symbol with a known "nice healthy flavour" about it, and making me feel better about using a product that has no particular healthy or unhealthy aspect. The desktop bin is neutral as far as recycling is concerned!

Is it OK to use symbols/images like this? Is it misleading? Does it influence choice of product unfairly?

I'd be interested in what others think about this.

Just as a note, I'm aware that both products I've mentioned are coincidentally Microsoft ones. I am NOT interested in watching a slanging match about microsoft; if you're one of the (well-known) partisans for that one, please do it in another thread. I'd rather read any responses here before this one gets pulled!

 

[AndyWatt]

Erm, my (Win9x/XP) Recycle Bin is called an, er, Recycle Bin...

The Refresh symbol only looks like a recycle symbol if you think it does. Much like saying a computer looks like a TV because there is a screen, because one perceives a similarity between two unrelated objects, however tenuous.

I do not have a problem with the "recycle" symbol being used for such. However, I do not associate my recyle bin with environmental-friendliness and quite frankly had not even thought about it until I read your post! Perhaps I should go away and ponder the philosophical implications...


Andy
"Logic is invincible because in order to combat logic it is necessary to use logic." -- Pierre Boutroux
"Why does my program keep showing error messages every time something goes wrong?"

 

[lionelhill]

Thanks for opinion. I suppose what I'm getting at is, if I use something that looks a bit like the british standard kitemark on my short-cut button for "check quality of data", I'd probably get in trouble for implying something about my product that isn't true. The green arrows on my recycle bin don't just look like a recycle symbol. They ARE the internationally-recognised symbol for an environmentally friendly material (recycled or recyclable).

The irony of it is that in order to keep up with new software (with new recycling symbol; it didn't used to be there!), I need to buy a new computer, which may or may not contain any recycled or recyclable parts.... Hardly an environmentally friendly act!

 

[AndyWatt]

The irony hadn't escaped me. I thought I noticed you noticing it too.

On closer inspection the symbol on my XP Pro recycle bin is a mirror image of the refresh symbol, and the one on my Win98 looks more like a rounded-upside-down recycle symbol, so I don't think anyone is trying to pretend to be Environmentally Friendly, just taking advantage of an association that we make in our own minds.

I wonder if I could get away with using a recycle symbol in my applications : "This product contains 20% recycled code"?


Andy
"Logic is invincible because in order to combat logic it is necessary to use logic." -- Pierre Boutroux
"Why does my program keep showing error messages every time something goes wrong?"

 

[lespaul]

Andy, is that post-consumer code?

Leslie

 

[AndyWatt]

lespaul

Eh? My brain isn't working at full speed today.


Andy
"Logic is invincible because in order to combat logic it is necessary to use logic." -- Pierre Boutroux
"Why does my program keep showing error messages every time something goes wrong?"

 

[lespaul]

You know, the recycled paper; some is post-consumer (recycled by those of us that use the product)

Leslie

 

[KornGeek]

I think that the symbol was originally used to indicate that it is a "Recycle" Bin, which I believe was based on the Mac's Garbage Bin. When they introduced the Recycle Bin, it seemed to me that they were trying to change the concept slighty (most likely to avoid copyright issues) and go with the trendy environmentally-friendly look.

Ironically, when you examine what it actually does, it does act as a recycle bin more than a garbage bin. The drive space that was previously used to store the files is recycled to make it available to new files. In this regards, the symbol is appropriate.

The symbol has changed since Win95 (when I first saw it), and I can't help but think this may be due to them catching some heat over misusing the recycle symbol.

 

[CajunCenturion]

And the ethical question is ????

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[AndyWatt]

> And the ethical question is ????

I think you may have just made it? (Sorry)

Andy
"Logic is invincible because in order to combat logic it is necessary to use logic." -- Pierre Boutroux
"Why does my program keep showing error messages every time something goes wrong?"

 

[lionelhill]

The ethical question is whether it's OK to attach a symbol with a well-known "good" meaning to a product that doesn't have that "good" content, presumably with a view to selling the product!
Is it OK for me to paint green arrows on something that's not recycled in the hopes people will think I'm environmentally friendly?

 

[craigsboyd]

I'm not exactly sure that is what was intended here though...I mean was Microsoft trying to make people think that their Recycle Bin was environmentally friendly? that's a stretch. I think that what is really happening is that symbols that already have an association in most users' minds are being used to increase "Intuitive Design". If I use a Stop Sign symbol the user will usually relate this to STOP or WAIT or CANNOT CONTINUE. If I use a Musical Note the user will usually think of MUSIC. Envelope or Mailbox symbol will symbolize MAIL to the user. When used properly the symbols can really help the user to use and navigate the application better. Recycle symbol does certainly seem to fit with the RECYCLE BIN, and since when I empty the recycle bin that harddrive space is then freed up to be reused (recycled) I would say it is a very good fit.

That having been said, that is not the way you posed your ethical question. I think it would be unethical for someone to for instance put a big smiley face or health sticker on the side of a jar of poison. I just think your example doesn't really fit.

Slighthaze = NULL
_{craig1442@mchsi.com}

"Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad." - Anon​

 

[lionelhill]

fair enough! My (personal) feeling was that musical notes and stop signs don't carry moral feelings, and yes, should be used just as you say. But to me the presence of a recycle symbol indicates an environmentally-friendly product (or aspect of product), and is therefore misused if applied to something that isn't environmentally friendly.

(1) It would be Right to apply it to a piece of software so undemanding of resources that an old, recycled computer could run it!

(2) It is Wrong to apply it in a piece of software which is either "recycle neutral" (doesn't affect green-friendliness of computer in any way) or worse, environmentally unfriendly (= more demanding of resources than its predecessor and therefore likely to force me to scrap my old machine and buy bigger).

I would very much like to see more software in the first category. Taking word-processing as an example, I have to have the latest software or I can't open other people's files. Therefore I need a new computer to run it on. But the features I use have been the same for the last 10 years or more! I don't really need all that hardware to do what I want. Therefore a lot of african children are unnecessarily sniffing burnt plastic from my old machine to work out whether it's recyclable or not. That isn't ethically OK.

(for what it's worth, that's just my personal viewpoint)

 

[AndyWatt]

Sorry, this has turned out to be longer than I thought it would. And please do not take offense, I just really don't agree.

> musical notes and stop signs don't carry moral feelings

And recycle symbols somehow do? As you said: "But to me.." This is a highly subjective thing. I had a rather heated argument with someone in a chat room about whether or not song lyrics incited violence. They don't. People do. The word "kill" in English has the meaning it does because we understand what it stands for. But to someone who has no knowledge of English it is a meaningless bunch of phonemes or symbols - it contains no inherent "kill-ness". A recycle bin is 1000-odd pixels on a screen. If you've never seen a recycle symbol...

I am not going to get into the Right and Wrong thing. Until Right and Wrong can be defined in provable mathematical terms it is opinion. It was once Right to enslave one's enemies.

> Taking word-processing as an example, I have to have the latest software or I can't open other people's files. Therefore I need a new computer to run it on.

I disagree (again). I use Word 97 and Windows 98 on a PII/550. I don't need a new computer to open these files. I've even had XP Pro running on the same PC without any problem. It must be about 5 years old by now. In the extremely unlikely event that Word97 won't work I do have the luxury of Word XP on my laptop. And I can always install Office XP on my 550.

But my experience has been that even Word 97 is getting a bit racey for a surprisingly large number companies (surprising to me anyway). I received a spreadsheet in Excel 2.0 format only last week and that was rocket science to the sender.

I do agree with you about the features issue. I haven't a clue what most of the menu items are for, and even less of an idea in Word XP. I just use it to type!

As for the African children - it is certainly immoral. We should dispose of our own waste. But people allow us to dispose of old PCs there. Whose fault is that?

Andy
"Logic is invincible because in order to combat logic it is necessary to use logic." -- Pierre Boutroux

 

[lionelhill]

No, I'm not taking offence! You make a lot of good points. Nevertheless, my old pentium 75 can't cope beyond word for windows 95, and sadly that won't open word 97, which some people will insist on using... Sniff.

The only thing I really do disagree with you about is the need to avoid discussion of right and wrong. It's messy, but ethics are all about what's right/wrong...

 

[AndyWatt]

Lionel,

I would rather not get into the right and wrong thing because it is too subjective. I'd never even thought about the recycle symbol - I simply don't care. But you obviously do, otherwise you wouldn't have raised the issue in the first place.

As I said, until you can define Right and Wrong in a mathematical and logically consistent way I believe all such to be opinion. Many years ago you would get hanged for stealing an orange, now you get a caution, if that. Opinion has changed, society has changed, people have changed, but basic arithmetic hasn't.

Fair point about your P75 - I was just assuming you had something slightly better! I remember when P75s were the last word in Desktop Technology. (Mind you I also remember seeing a 80486DX4/100 chip on the cover of a PC magazine - inside a reviewer was evaluating a server based on said chip and couldn't think of any reason why a company would need anything that fast! How times change.)

Andy
"Logic is invincible because in order to combat logic it is necessary to use logic." -- Pierre Boutroux

 

[jrbarnett]

Andy,

I also remember
- Bill Gates saying "why would anybody need more than 640Kb memory?"
and by Ken Olufsen in 1977 (former head of DEC, then Digital, now owned by Compaq, bought by HP) "Why would anybody want a computer in their home"

John

 

[AndyWatt]

jrbarnett

I've heard the 640KB one before, but Olufsen quote almost made me fall out of my seat!

I actually spilt my coffee!

That's going to keep me smiling all afternoon.

Andy
"Logic is invincible because in order to combat logic it is necessary to use logic." -- Pierre Boutroux

 

[dkediger]

There really are no differnces in the Office 97 vs Office 95 products that preclude a Win 95 machine from using the 97 versions. Microsoft basically changed the file formats - for whatever purposes. When Office 97 was released, the only Windows OS's where 95 and NT, so its not really a resource issue.

I do believe MS does have a freely downloadable Word 97 viewer. Looks like cut/paste can be performed from it to get you into Word 95.

 

[jrbarnett]

Andy,
Here's a few more for you:

Some computer related, others not...

"Any serious graphics applications still run better on Apple's Macintosh platform..." -Bill Gates, 1991

"Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons."
--Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
--Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943

"I have traveled the length and breadth of this country and talked with the best people, and I can assure you that data processing is a fad that won't last out the year." --The editor in charge of business books for Prentice Hall, 1957

"But what ... is it good for?" --Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.

"This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us."
--Western Union internal memo, 1876.

"The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?" --David Sarnoff's associates in response to his urgings for investment in the radio in the 1920s.

"The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn better than a 'C,' the idea must be feasible." --A Yale University management professor in response to Fred Smith's paper proposing reliable overnight delivery service. (Smith went on to found Federal Express Corp.)

"Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?" --H.M. Warner, Warner Brothers, 1927.

"I'm just glad it'll be Clark Gable who's falling on his face and not Gary Cooper."
-Gary Cooper on his decision not to take the leading role in "Gone With The Wind."

"A cookie store is a bad idea. Besides, the market research reports say America likes crispy cookies, not soft and chewy cookies like you make."
--Response to Debbi Fields' idea of starting Mrs. Fields' Cookies.

"We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out."
--Decca Recording Co. rejecting the Beatles, 1962.

"Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." --Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895.

"If I had thought about it, I wouldn't have done the experiment.
The literature was full of examples that said you can't do this."
--Spencer Silver on the work that led to the unique adhesives for 3-M "Post-It" Notepads.

"So we went to Atari and said, 'Hey, we've got this amazing thing, even built with some of your parts, and what do you think about funding us? Or we'll give it to you. We just want to do it. Pay our salary, we'll come work for you.' And they said, 'No.' So then we went to Hewlett-Packard, and they said, 'Hey, we don't need you.
You haven't got through college yet.'"
-Apple Computer Inc. founder Steve Jobs on attempts to get Atari and H-P interested in his and Steve Wozniak's personal computer.

"Professor Goddard does not know the relation between action and reaction and the need to have something better than a vacuum against which to react. He seems to lack the basic knowledge ladled out daily in high schools."
-1921 New York Times editorial about Robert Goddard's revolutionary rocket work.

"You want to have consistent and uniform muscle development across all of your muscles? It can't be done. It's just a fact of life. You just have to accept inconsistent muscle development as an unalterable condition of weight training."
--Response to Arthur Jones, who solved the "unsolvable" problem by inventing Nautilus.

"Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try and find oil? You're crazy."
--Drillers who Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist to his project to drill for oil in 1859.

"Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau."
--Irving Fisher, Professor of Economics, Yale University, 1929.

"Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value."
--Marechal Ferdinand Foch, Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre.

"Everything that can be invented has been invented."
--Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899.

"The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon".
--Sir John Eric Ericksen, British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria 1873.

"I expect to win it. Sit back, put your feet up in front of the TV, relax and enjoy it. Let me do the worrying - that's what I get paid for."
- England manager Graham Taylor before the 1992 European championships. England didn't win a game.

"I have always found strangers sexy." - Hugh Grant, six months before he was arrested with stranger Divine Brown.

"I would not wish to be Prime Minister, dear." - Margaret Thatcher in 1973.

"That rainbow song's no good. Take it out." - MGM memo after first showing of The Wizard Of Oz.

"You'd better learn secretarial skills or else get married." - Modelling agency, rejecting Marilyn Monroe in 1944.

"Radio has no future." "X-rays are clearly a hoax". "The aeroplane is scientifically impossible." - Royal Society president Lord Kelvin, 1897-9.

"You ought to go back to driving a truck." - Concert manager, firing Elvis Presley in 1954.

"Forget it. No Civil War picture ever made a nickel." - MGM executive, advising against investing in Gone With The Wind.

"Can't act. Can't sing. Slightly bald. Can dance a little." - A film company's verdict on Fred Astaire's 1928 screen test.

"Very interesting, Whittle, my boy, but it will never work." - Professor of Aeronautical Engineering at Cambridge, shown Frank Whittle's plan for the jet
engine.

"There will be one million cases of AIDS in Britain by 1991." - World Health Organisation in a 1989 report. It over-estimated by 992,301 cases.

"The Beatles? They're on the wane." - The Duke of Edinburgh in Canada, 1965.
They went on to produce a string of No 1s.

"The atom bomb will never go off - and I speak as an expert in explosives." - U.S. Admiral William Leahy in 1945.

"All saved from Titanic after collision."
-- Headline in New York Evening Sun, April 15 1912.

"Brain work will cause women to go bald."
-- Berlin professor, 1914.

"Television won't matter in your lifetime or mine."
-- Radio Times editor Rex Lambert, 1936.

"Everything that can be invented has been invented."
-- Charles Duell, director of the US Patent Office, 1899.

"And for the tourist who really wants to get away from it all, safaris in Vietnam."
- Newsweek magazine, predicting popular holidays for the late 1960s.

John

By the way I made a spelling mistake - the former head of Dec was Ken Olson, not Olufsen (D'Oh).