"True Hidden" partition?

[Brontoy]

I read that a partition needs to be "true hidden" not just "hidden" in order for Windows XP to completely not see a hidden partition.

Is this an old issue that has been dealt with already by programs such as Partition Magic, or is it something to be aware of today?

I am trying to install Win XP Pro twice and COMPLETELY independently of each other, and so am "putting my ducks in a row" to do this correctly.

Thanks in advance for any insights.

 

[wolluf]

Not sure about PM - but

http://www.boot-us.com

has a feature to 'true hide' a partition (XP is still aware there's something there - but not what).

However, to achieve 2 independent installations, a normal hide of the first one while installing the second will usually do the trick (XP install knows its there, but won't use its boot sector, so writes a new one on the second primary partition)

 

[edfair]

Installation of PM will give you a step to create a boot EBD and a PM EBD set. It also puts the PM stuff on the active partition.

Once you have the hard drive version you can run it to resize the first and create the second partition, or you can use the floppy set to do it. Then either of the EBD sets will allow you to select which one is active.
Either partition that is marked as active will show as a valid partition and the other will be marked as non-dos.

I normally work off the resident software rather than floppy based for the duration of partition creation or sizing.

After the 2nd install is finished you use the boot EBD to reactivate the boot choice capability.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[Brontoy]

Thanks for the responses.

EdFair - The laptop I am trying to set up does not have a floppy disk drive. So I think I am stuck not making any Emergncy Back Ups. I can always just boot from the PM8 disk, I hope that is as useful. I am not clear however, when it is better to run PM from within the Windows installed program, or when to boot from the PM disk. Any insights would be appreciated.

Wolluf-Yes, its from the Boot-Us documentation that I heard about "true hide". I have not been able to find anything about this anywhere else. Thats why I am wondering if its a relevant detail. Do you have any experience with Boot-Us?

All I know is that when I tried to create a dual-boot system on this lappy last time, when I changed a Windows service such as "Automatic Updates" in one OS, I found that when I re-booted to the second OS (also WinXP-Pro) the service was changed in THAT OS ALSO. This is the kind of stuff I am trying to avoid.

 

[edfair]

Without a floppy you would need to use the CD.
You'll lose access to the first install when you make the second, which is the reason for the EBDs, but I assume that the later PMs have recognized the trend to leave the floppy out.
You can have up to 4 partitions in a standard partition table. They can all be DOS, but only one can be active. The PM manipulated partitions, although DOS, are marked as non-dos, with no file system type, and would, therefore, be truly hidden. I haven't bothered to research how it is done, or different from plain hidden, but running and servicing as many machines multi-boot as I do it is a matter of time till I get a table screwed up and have to dig the info out.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[Brontoy]

Does anybody have any experience with Boot-Us, especially as compared to Partition Magic's Boot Magic?

Also, if I install a dual-boot correcty with two WinXP's, I SHOULD be able to turn off services in one OS and leave them on in the second OS, no?

The Symantec support sucks, I am grateful for any insights from this forum. (I have been waiting 2 days for tech email response, and after waiting 45 minutes on the phone, I got a guy who did not speak English well and was of NO help.)

 

[edfair]

Referring to #2, they are independent and so, yes, services are also independent.

No experience with boot-us, so that is for somebody else.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[wolluf]

I've been using boot-us for 4-5 years. Have had a play with Boot Magic (and in fact 6 or 7 other boot managers) - but that was after started using boot-us - which does everything I want, so I keep using it! It shouldn't really matter which boot manager you use - its the way you set up the operating systems that matters. I'm a bit dubious of your previous 'dual boot', as there should be no way that changing a service status in one XP affects the other (you did install to separate partitions?). My point about independence was purely concerned with boot sectors. If you just install XP twice into 2 partitions, both use the same boot sector - on the first partition. Which means if you trash first partition/installation, second won't boot (easily recoverable - but a nuisance).

To achieve your goal from scratch with no floppy drive using boot-us, I would do this:-

1. Install XP (1) booting from install CD. When partitioning, just create one partition for this installation - leave rest of drive unpartitioned.

2. In XP, create a second primary (must be primary) partition in disk management (run diskmgmt.msc). Install boot-us GUI and use its tools to hide or true hide the first XP partition (this will take effect on next reboot).

3. Boot from XP install CD again and install into second partition.

4. In this second XP, install boot-us gui and unhide partition 1. Now install boot menu (I'd save it to mbr), and you should have 2 independent XP's, with a boot-us menu to select which to boot. Both will have C: as system drive (ie, second install's will see second partition as C.

 

[Brontoy]

Thank you Wolluf! That is a clear step-by-step that I need!

In regard to your question about my last attempt, I did install into 2 partitions, and using Partition Magic 8 I did hide one while installing the second BUT- instead of installing the second OS from the XP CD, I had made a ghost image of the first OS and restored that image into the second partition. Well, that did not work and it was back to the drawing board.

Since I already have Partition Magic 8, would it be even safer to create the second partition by booting from the PM8 CD and using its tools?

Going further, do you think PM8 can also create a real independant dual-boot system? I could not find any mention of "true hide" in PM8 literature. Is it because it is taken for granted in PM8 or does Boot-Us really go one step further?

Thank you so much for your attention.

 

[edfair]

It is taken for granted. All non-active partitions are reported as non-dos until they are made active and then revert to their previous type.

Since you own it, use it.

Haven't used 8, but have used 4 thru 7 personally and for customers, and it really does keep stuff separate.

You probably will need to create an extended partition drive in addition to the bootable primary ones. That would be the place where shared stuff would reside. Right now you want them completely separated but you'll find that you will need some shared space.

I have one system that has 3 bootable 95a partitions used mostly for different email accounts. All share D:, E:, and F:, along with the hardware resources. F has the install stuff, so in a worst case scenario, once DOS is back up and running all the installation is from the hard drive, except the PM stuff if it happened to be the first partition.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[Brontoy]

OK - I really want to thank this forum for the understandable insights.

One last question before I go ahead and hopefully finally install a real, proper dual boot system:

After I install the first XP, does it matter if I create the next partition AFTER or BEFORE the existing partition?

Should I resize/move the first existing partition to create a new partition BEFORE the existing one?

I am going to take forum advice and create a third logical extension partition for data both systems can access.

Lastly, for what its worth, I think I am going to use Boot-Us for the actual booting system and maybe just use the PM8 CD to boot from to create partitions. I like the fact that Boot-Us makes a point of not doing anything to the hard disk without user consent.

 

[edfair]

#1. Creating the next partition after the existing first will result in less moving stuff around and is , theoretically, safer. But PM is an "Alice in Wonderland" program. Very, very good or very, very bad.

#2. It doesn't matter. But for reason #1 I would create the second and third sequentially after the first.

Without having any boot-us experience, and so possibly ignorant, I suspect that they are basically the same. BM also requires consent.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[wolluf]

You don't need to use PM at all to set this up - so I wouldn't. XP's disk management is the tool for the job (there have previously been issues for Windows booting from partitions created by PM - though I've not heard of any with PM 8 - but disk management does all you need. PM might be useful later if you want to change the partitioning).

If you want a working system - just follow my earlier instructions. If you want to experiment with how you create the partitions and in which order, that's entirely your choice - but you'll increase the chances of it falling in a heap.

btw - I don't think PM has any concept of true hiding. I think that's something Ulrich at boot-us has developed (possibly with some others). If I remember, hiding a partition is a simple bit transformation of the partition's header entry in the partition table (which XP can decode). True hiding involves a more complicated transformation - which XP can't decode.

btw2 - If you do take Ed's suggestion of a common partition to share between o/s, it can also be primary. I say this, as have had problems in the past 'losing' extended partitions (and I still see others posting to this effect) - so I never use them for serious work. I know others say they've never had problems - but I have so I mention it.

 

[Brontoy]

Did not have a chance to post for a while because I had to take a business trip.

Just want to thank the forum for the insights. I was able to successfully set up a dual boot system using Boot-Us and it seems to be working great.

Much Appreiciated!

 

[wolluf]

Glad you got it sorted.