"RTFM"--this phrase needs to die!

[langleymass]

RTFM"--if you don't know, it means "read the freaking manual." Sometimes other adjectives are used in the F position. This phrase needs to die.

While it is entirely true that many people do NOT read the manuals, this response is often simply a confession meaning, "I don't have time to read your question."

Here are two cases in point:

I recently learned of my employer having a stock-purchase plan. I asked one person: "Do I have to have an E-trade account?" The response was a link to a PDF. Of course, the PDF did not have the answer. I wrote back: "This doesn't answer the question at all." After that, I did get an answer.

I subscribed to a Yahoo group. I read the subscriber FAQ, the intro letter, and even browsed past archives for the group. Then I e-mailed the mod: "Is it okay if I mention these things?" His response was to read the FAQ. I haven't written back to him yet. If I was comfortable with the "answer" the FAQ gave, I wouldn't have asked. I was simply trying to follow the rules and just wanted to know exactly how the rules would apply to some specific cases.

"RTFM" says more about the person answering the question than about the person asking the question. Generally, manuals are very abstract and general. However, many questions are very specific and concrete. "RTFM" needs to die.

 

[longhair]

langleymass,
agreed for your above points + 'RTFM' is just a bit (^o^) unprofessional.
but then again i try not to use my chronic initialism that much - i think 'hth' is about all i use on a regular basis. we are all supposed to be professional here and as such should be able to type complete thoughts.


regards,
longhair

 

[jsteph]

I think it's a case-by-case thing. Many times it really is appropriate, ie when people ask questions that truly are right there in a FAQ or just an F1 key away.

But I agree that it can be an excuse for one not to try to help more. Such as when MS (and, to be fair, many other software vendors) have basically a non-stop recording on their support lines that repeats the same thing to all callers:
Level-1 Support line: "Reboot"
Level-2 Support line: "Re-Install Windows"
Level-3 Support line: "It's your hardware".
--Jim

 

[johnherman]

Thanks for setting me straight on RTFM. I thought it stood for Read The Forums, Moron.

-------------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw

 

[Glenn9999]

I think asking a question that requires a standard RTFM (or its cousin STFW) response is unprofessional. If it's a truly confusing issue, that's different, but a lot of people will use forums like this one as a first line, and neglect to do their own work. When forums like this become "do my work for me" forums and not "help" forums, you got problems.

Frankly a lot of people deserve RTFM, especially if they make a new thread that essentially says "do my work for me".

"Do my work for me" doesn't deserve any additional help. Unfortunately it seems all too common in some circles and there's always many people totally willing to jump in to "do their work for them" with glee. Sad but true.

(BTW, you wouldn't believe some of the completely ridiculous questions that I've seen in "help forums". Questions that plainly indicate either that the person (often self-identified as a "Programmer Analyst" or "Systems Analyst") asking is unqualified or that they didn't do their work. )

 

[langleymass]

I do believe some of the ridiculous questions in forums. I have seen them. But when you say "RTFM," you are automatically assuming that the person has not done so. This isn't always the case.

 

[Glenn9999]

But when you say "RTFM," you are automatically assuming that the person has not done so. This isn't always the case."

99% of the time it is, though, especially if you "believe some of the ridiculous questions in forums". It's not rude, IMO, to say, "look up X in the manual". But a lot of people think it's rude, it seems, and I've been griped (think b word if you want a better phrase) out on many cases for not directly answering any and all questions.

You can reasonably determine on most questions if you have the knowledge whether 1) the required information appears in a manual and 2) whether the person looked it up.

Like the most ridiculous question I've seen. One person asked "How do I print data in a COBOL program?" For this language, this involves the simplest most rudimentary knowledge applicable to the language that is taught on day one of any COBOL class. Why would you not tell this person to go RTFM? Or better yet, hang up programming (BTW, how did this joker even GET a COBOL position?)

Would you answer this question anyway?

There are just some questions that some people ask that simply do not deserve answers. The example above is one of them.

 

[benlinkknilneb]

Perhaps, langleymass, but often I read a question so poorly written that it kinda ticks me off. I disagree that the phrase RTFM needs to die. If one is going to contribute to a site that claims to be for "professionals", one should be able to do a bit of ground work. There's a difference between the two following examples:

1: "how do i sort my datatable in vb.net"

2: "I read that rearranging the rows in a datatable object is not a guaranteed way to sort the contents. I googled for a way to sort datatables, and found nothing helpful. What would be the best way to do this?"

The first one above would probably get a RTFM from me. The person only wants a quick fix, they're not actually interested in this, they just want a packaged answer. The second person would get a full response from me. They told me what they already know (so I don't have to assume that I have to start at ground level). I get the feeling they're genuinely interested in the topic, too. A little thought put into a post can make a world of difference... and RTFM needs to be around for the people who are so lazy that they can't even hit google before making me waste 10 minutes explaining something they'd find already written out if they'd just hit the "I'm feeling lucky" button.

Ben

There's no place like 127.0.0.1.

 

[Glenn9999]

indeed. #1 shows no effort whatsoever, while #2 does. Even if it is a manual question, often questions get more apt responses if:

1) The question is phrased properly and includes all necessary information. If a programmer can not spec out his own project correctly he has more problems than ones of a technical nature. If you do not know what you are supposed to be doing, you will definitely not complete it successfully. "A fully stated problem is half-solved." or some such thing as was said by Charles Ketterling.

2) The response is something they would not get in a manual or a clarification of the manual (I've seen that in the last week).

3) If they show effort by having indicated the right material and shown an attempt (even a toy program) at solving the problem. To wit, one of my programming instructors in training would not give any of their students the time of day on something class related unless they demonstrated some effort first. Not unreasonable, especially since the person asking the question needs to learn to put the effort forth themselves and not have anyone else solve their problems for them.

Let the students earn their own A's. Let the workers earn their own keep. Sometimes RTFM is for their own good.

 

[longhair]

not sure that the arguments to keep 'RTFM' hold water. we are supposed to be professionals, as such, we should never respond like that.
there are times that i have posted, and have seen others, the exact help entry for the user. this is on par with 'RTFM' but not as rude. it lets the user respond. perhaps they already read the help, but did not phrase their question correctly. perhaps they just needed a starting point.
most people can be good programmers in i'd say two languages at once, at most. the person posting the 'simple' question in regards to, let's say C++ may have little to no experience with it but may understand VB. it's possible they are just filling in for someone.
regards,
longhair

 

[mrdenny]

Just because we are professionals doesn't mean we have to be all PC. Some of the best technical people that I've met (myself included) have no PC skills at all. Some people that ask questions (both online and offline) just need to be told that it's in the damn book.

I like the example given above on how to sort the data. If someone asked me how to sort data for a result set from a database, I'd tell them to look in BOL under SELECT and under ORDER BY (and I have done this to people at the office, and on forums). Bascailly I nice way of saying RTFM. (I don't use freaking, I use the other option.)

If someone comes to me and says I'm using order by, and it's not sorting the data in the way that I want it to be sorted, can you help me out here? Then I'll put in the extra effort to actually look at what they are doing, and get them moving the right direction.

99.9% of the time the best thing you can do for someone is not tell them the answer, but show them where to find the answer. If you show them the answer you haven't doen anything but make them reley on you for the answer. If you show them where to find the answer, they will look there the next time and not bug you about it.


Denny
MCSA (2003) / MCDBA (SQL 2000)

--Anything is possible. All it takes is a little research. (Me)

http://www.mrdenny.com

(Not quite so old any more.)

 

[benlinkknilneb]

Right on Denny!

Give a man a fish, he eats for a day, and all that jazz.

Ben

There's no place like 127.0.0.1.

 

[mrdenny]

Man, I spent like 10 minutes trying to remember that phrase. I totally wanted to include it in my post, but I just couldn't put the words together.

Man what a morning.

Denny
MCSA (2003) / MCDBA (SQL 2000)

--Anything is possible. All it takes is a little research. (Me)

http://www.mrdenny.com

(Not quite so old any more.)

 

[EBGreen]

What phrase?

Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

That phrase?

I think RTFm has a place right along side RTFFAQ. There are inumerable cases of someone posting a question in a forum that is clearly answered in the FAQs for that very same forum. It isn't IMO a matter of professionalism, but if you want to equate it to professionalism, then the question asker is being answered with the same degree of professionalism as they used by not reading the FAQ.

[red]"... isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway?! I mean, all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you are good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick[/red]

 

[mrdenny]

no, the fish one. I like the fire one though.

Denny
MCSA (2003) / MCDBA (SQL 2000)

--Anything is possible. All it takes is a little research. (Me)

http://www.mrdenny.com

(Not quite so old any more.)

 

[GwydionM]

Some manuals seem written with the intent of being as hard to follow as possible, maybe so you'll need to sign up to one of their courses.

As for FAQs, this site's search engine lets you check the forums OR the FAQs, meaning that someone can think they have checked dilligently and still miss the answer. It seems odd that the search doesn't default to do both.

------------------------------
An old man who lives in the UK

 

[langleymass]

Many manuals are poorly written. Sometimes this is worse than no manual.

What I don't like is when tech support people and others automatically assume that I haven't read the manual whenever I have a question.

 

[longhair]

and therein lies what i was trying to get at. the assumption part.
regards
longhair

 

[benlinkknilneb]

Personally, the only time I'll assume that you didn't read the manual is if you give me no evidence that you've searched for anything.

If I read your post and I know that the answer is not hard to find, I'll give you a RTFM sort of response.

If I read your post and think, "hmm... he's already done xyz to try to solve it... how else could it be done?" THEN we're getting somewhere. I'm not your built-in interactive manual, and if I feel like I'm being used as such, you'll get RTFMs. But if I feel like I'm working with a pro who does a little homework and wants to clarify something, jeez, man, I'm all for that.

The problem is NOT the phrase "RTFM", it's some people's improper use of said phrase.

mrdenny:
How about the Dilbert flavor?

"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day.
Teach a man to fish, he eats for the rest of his life.
Talk to starving people about fish, then you're a consultant."

Ben

There's no place like 127.0.0.1.

 

[flapeyre]

Give a man a fish, he eats for a day.

Teach a man to fish, he sits in a boat and drinks beer all day.

Me transmitte sursum, Caledoni!