"Off of" vs "From" - Grammar and Style - What should be used

[kjv1611]

In the thread:
thread1256-1440676,

Thargslayer said:

Americans saying "off of" instead of from.

Is this acceptable in American English, or just poor performance from our colonial cousins, who use and abuse English, well.... almost as much as the English!

SantaMufasa and Stella740pl seemed to disagree with Tharg, at least from a grammatical standpoint.

What I would like to propose is that we discuss the grammatical and stylistic usage for the phrase "off of." For instance, it may be grammatically correct in some cases, but may not be the best style chosen for a particular audience.

One example sentence that I can think if would be saying:
"The ball bounced off of the rim."

In the above sentence, I believe there are only 2 other methods the idea could be clearly expressed.
[ol]
[li]"The ball bounced off the rim."[/li]
[li]"Brick!" [/li]
[/ol]

Depending upon your audience and the context of your situation, one of the 3 would be more appropriate than the other two.

I can not see this form conveying the information correctly:
"The ball bounced from the rim."

It doesn't seem to portray the same information. In my opinion, I would take "bounced from the rim" to mean that the ball was thrown strait at the goal, and then basically ricocheted. By using "off of", it would seem more that someone attempted to take a "normal" shot at the basket, and the ball then bounced up into the air.

This post is getting dangerously close to being too long!

--

"If to err is human, then I must be some kind of human!" -Me

 

[2ffat]

OK. Here are my two cents worth (which, due to inflation, is now worth ¹/₆₄ of a cent). Decades ago, I was taught in American schools that "off of" was never appropriate. Instead, we dropped the "of".

The ball bounce off the rim.


James P. Cottingham
-----------------------------------------
^{I'm number 1,229!
I'm number 1,229!}

 

[Thargy]

I agree with "the ball bounced off the rim".

I think that when one uses from, there is an inherent sense of the ablative, which is probably not what's meant in this context.

T

Grinding away at things Oracular

 

[Thadeus]

Well this conversation isn't headed in the direction I expected from the title.

I hope it's not a hijack to offer an completely different example as that's not my intention.

Where I hear 'off of' used often where 'from' may be the correct usage is not so much directional (as in the ball bouncing).

I downloaded the patch off of the company's website.

I downloaded the patch from the company's website.

~Thadeus

 

[rjoubert]

How about "off from"?

"The candidate backed off from his original stance on abortion."

From a world news headline...
"Cut off from resources, Gaza's streets flow with s**t"

 

[jebenson]

Taking the original example:

"The ball bounced off of the rim." or "The ball bounced from the rim."

Remove "the rim", and we get "The ball bounced off of." or "The ball bounced from."

Neither usage is correct, obviously. Remove "of" from the first example and we have "The ball bounced off.", which is the correct usage.





I used to rock and roll every night and party every day. Then it was every other day. Now I'm lucky if I can find 30 minutes a week in which to get funky. - Homer Simpson

Arrrr, mateys! Ye needs ta be preparin' yerselves fer Talk Like a Pirate Day!

 

[SantaMufasa]

"The ball bounced off.", which is the correct usage.

In which universe? <grin>. Besides an avoidable and unsavoury "dangling preposition" at the end of the sentence, the re-write changes the meaning of the sentence. It now sounds similar to "The jack rabbit hopped off."


I cannot imagine a case where removing the object of the preposition improves the clarity of a sentence.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[SantaMufasa]

Tharg, I just read your update in the other thread. There you assert that the following is an appropriate "correction" for the improper use of "off of":

The toughest stains will come from your clothes.

I disagree.

The implications/interpretations of the two sentences differ significantly:

Wording 1:
"The toughest stains will come off of your clothes."

Interpretation 1:
"The toughest stains will no longer soil your clothes."

Wording 2:
"The toughest stains will come from your clothes."

Interpretation 2:
"Your clothes are so filthy that they are the source of, and will cause, stains on whatever they touch."

There is clearly a difference here.

This is not to say that there are many abuses of the clause "off of", which "from" can cure. But I believe it is incorrect to say that "from" should always supplant, or replace, "off of".

Now, if our intent is to Write Precisely, then I believe that we can improve the original sentence significantly.

First, I doubt that the intent of the sentence, regardless of wording, is "Stains will miraculously disappear, by themselves, from a modern-day miracle fabric". I presume that the intent of the writer/speaker is to convey that some agent causes stain removal from the clothes.

Although neither of the original wording choices technically/structurally fall into the category of weak, passive voice, the absence of the explicit actor/agent/doer of the stain removal reduces the precision and impact of the sentence. That absence of the actor/agent/doer effectively causes the sentence to become "passive".

Therefore, I believe an appropriate re-write (for precision) is:

"The detergent removes the toughest stains from your clothes."

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[Thargy]

Santa,

since we both know that only a salesman or a corporate marketing department would ever say
"The detergent removes the toughest stains from your clothes." I'd have to file the entire sentence under the general heading of 'sales drivel'

I am pleased to note that although my responses are anything but perfect, nobody seems to be making a case for 'off of'. My sense of "noble purpose" has had an airing, and we're only just into February. To have such a rant so early in the year is truly an achievement.

More transatlantic spleen venting will doubtless follow...

T

Grinding away at things Oracular

 

[SantaMufasa]

Santa smiles and nods in agreement. <grin>

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[mjldba]

Using baseball as an example, I thing "the ball bounced off his glove" would be appropriate whereas "the ball bounced from his glove" would imply the fielder actually had the ball in or near his glove as some moment in time.

"Off" his glove would imply deflection so actual possession, even momentary, never occured.

"From" his glove would indicate the ball was in his glove (caught = possession = control) and now the ball has been dropped.

The ball may bounce off the wall but the ball does not come from the wall.

 

[jebenson]

In which universe? <grin>. Besides an avoidable and unsavoury "dangling preposition" at the end of the sentence, the re-write changes the meaning of the sentence. It now sounds similar to "The jack rabbit hopped off."

I cannot imagine a case where removing the object of the preposition improves the clarity of a sentence.

I didn't mean that it was correct in that is was maintaining the meaning of the previous sentence that included the words "the rim". What I meant was it is correct in relation to ending the sentence with "off of" or "from". In the original context, "The ball bounced off the rim" is correct, not "off of" or "from".

Now, get off of my back!


I used to rock and roll every night and party every day. Then it was every other day. Now I'm lucky if I can find 30 minutes a week in which to get funky. - Homer Simpson

Arrrr, mateys! Ye needs ta be preparin' yerselves fer Talk Like a Pirate Day!

 

[SantaMufasa]

<wink>

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[xwb]

Bounced off of doesn't make a lot of sense. Shouldn't it be

the ball bounced off off the rim

a combination of

1) the ball bounced off
2) it went off the rim

 

[Turkbear]

Hi,
but,in your first example, what did it 'bounce off' of ?

It all depends on whether you want to tell what happened to the ball or what it bounced off of .

As to the dangling participle,Santa,I agree.
It is a grammatical error up with which I will not put





To Paraphrase:"The Help you get is proportional to the Help you give.."

 

[SantaMufasa]

<wink> <wink> <nod> <nod>, Turkbear.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[KenCunningham]

To go back to the stains discussion if I may. It's always been my understanding that stains come 'out' of clothing when cleaned, since they are 'in' the material rather than 'on' the material.

I want to be good, is that not enough?

 

[MeGustaXL]

Can the ball rebound from the rim?

Chris

So you ride yourselves over the fields,
and you make all your animal deals,
and your wise men don't know how it feels...

Ian Anderson

 

[dwarfthrower]

Can the ball rebound from the rim?

The word 'from' invokes a sense of origin. That the ball is rebounding would imply that it didn't originate at the rim but was thrown there from somewhere else. The ball rebounds off the rim, not from it.

The ball might fall into your hands 'from' the rim. But in that case I think that 'off' the rim would also be appropriate.

_{Never be afraid to share your dreams with the world.
There's nothing the world loves more than the taste of really sweet dreams.}
Webflo

 

[CajunCenturion]

As 2ffat said in the very first response, "off of" shouldn't be used, and neither should "off from". Both "off" and "of" are prepositions and prepositions are followed by objects, not other prepositions. In other words, the grammatical error with "off of" is that it contains two consecutive prepositions.

The ball bounced off the rim.
The candidate backed off his original stance on abortion.


--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein