Pure IP Solutions

[IPOUK]

What is everyones view on a pure IP Solution? Got a client who want a pure IP solution - 130 users. They're getting Cisco switches installed. Now, they are only going to have an ISDN30 installed (with 30 channels), and possibly 15 channels with another ISDN provider.

Who has the largest pure IP solution out there, and what is the feedback? With a VCM30 installed, I wouldn't think there would be too many problems (if the 30 channels only are open), but anymore I can see there being problems.

A bit of feedbak would be great!

Cheers.

 

[bigjohn8210]

So your going for a

IP Office 412 and IP handsets

First thing would be how many calls they make a once maximum during the day. which i have clients with 200 users and they never go over 30 Channels


The IP phones will take up a channel to make a phone call and will keepo using it. internal it will use two channels and then drop them as the connection is made.


Should be straight forward but i have never used ip handsets just softphone.

 

[IPOUK]

Yeh - so with 45 channels I'm thinking really I need to go for a VCM30 + well, VCM20 to make sure they can always have 45 incoming/outgoing calls at once. The internal users will all be IP Phones so the channel will only need to be open during the initial call setup. I'm thinking it's a viabled solution, but I don't think IPO is really designed as a pure IP solution - mainly being that the 412 can take 120 lines, with a maximum of 60VCM channels - all things need to be considered!!

 

[VanZenden]

IPOUK,

In your scenario, I would go with S8300/G700 solution ... its cheaper and more reliable...

 

[Ragnorak]

IP Phones need a VCM channel for every call. This includes incoming, outgoing, calls to voicemail, and internal calls. You can set IP Phone to IP Phone calls to drop the VCM channel once the call is established, but you still need a free chanel to establish the call.

The IP Office is not really designed to be used as a pure IP system. You can do it, but the capacity peaks much earlier because you are limited by the VCM channels and a VCM module is not cheap so you may price yourself out of a competitive solution. The IP sets are more expensive as well.

The IP Phones are really for remote and mobile users. The real advantage of using the IP aspect of the system is to network two or more systems using the existing data network so that the customer realizes a cost savings by not having to purchase additional telco circuits. It also allows network applications to integrate with the IP Office (screen pops with phone manager, etc.)

Cisco is the largest pure IP solution. All of my Cisco tech lore is 5 years outdated so I can't give you a solid analysis. Generally, if you need every bell and whistle for a given feature scrutinize Cisco to make sure it really handles that feature to your customer's satisfaction. Other than that, plenty of people install it and don't throw it out the window so I'm sure its fine.

 

[VOiDDude]

IPOUK,

If you want a pure IP solution don't go for the IPO. I had an implementation with 250 IP Phones and it was a complete disaster. After 2 months we replaced the system with an S8300.

If you think you won't see problems I suggest you give it a try

 

[IPOUK]

well that was the main reason for my msg - thanks for all the replies

I only posted the msg because I thought a pure IP solution was silly and really, the clients just said that cause they think VoIP is the way to go - I tried to illustrate the fact for internal users, VoIP extns are not necessary. We went in because a similar quote for a S8300 G700 (with Cisco switches) was coming in at £140k - so we have gone in at a different angle, going for digital extns.

Many thanks guys

 

[MrIPO]

Bottom line S8300 G700 for this due to the restrictions on concurrent call via the IPO being Max 60 (Concurrent). As Ragnorak explaned it more a Digital solution with IP Cabilities rather than a pure IP Solution for say more than 100 IP Phones. We do have a couple of sites with over 70 IP Phones but they do run the risk of blocking if they expand and further.

I am still yet to be convinced of a compelling reason to go pure IP, considering the costs of decent Ethernet Switches, PoE devices and the phones. Not to mention the heartache if the Switch Fails and having to reconfigure Vlans Etc Etc Etc to make it work correctly again.

Umm anotherprivatebuild !!!

 

[IPGuru]

IP technologiy is great in the correct environment

The office ienvironment with direct connection to the telephone sitch avaialabel is NOT the correct environment for VoIP. Traditional TDM technology will always outperform VoIP in that scenario.

Telecom press is cean to promote VoIP as the latest all singing aldancing technology. It is up to ouselfs as responsible suppliers to correct this & continue to promote the correct tool for the correct job.

If you install a VoIP solloution just because its there expect problems, Like wise do not avoid VoIP when it is the best solution to a problem.

 

[sizbut]

Depends where you really want/need VoIP.

In a good structured cable system, wiring everything as RJ45 end to end and then using those cable for either IP data or TDM voice is relatively easy. It just a case of which patch panel the cable is plugged into at the 'comms room' end - the phone system port or the network switches.

Reserve VoIP for intersite IP trunks and maybe remote users at the end of VPN connection.

TDM voice is reliable/high quality mature technology. Tieing it together with IP telephony applications is good convergence and lets users get the best out of even basic model phones.

Going all IP to the desktop is possible but pushes all the IP Office and customers resources for no clear gain over a mixed TDM/IP solution.

Except for the web browse functions of 4620/30 phones I'm not aware of any must have for IP sets or any hint that TDM sets might start getting rarer in the next few years.

 

[Spanning]

Stick to TDM localy (gives better quality) on any system (sadly not on Cizco)
Use VOIP to interconnect platforms or remote workers, why complicate matters.

 

[IPGuru]

thanks spaning, that was what i was trying to say, only you put it much shorter

 

[Spanning]

Your welcome

 

[nohuhu]

IPGuru,

i disagree and strongly disagree. voip is mature enough to be used in any generic office environment. it gives much more possibilities than tdm AND is cheaper too. though not with ipo, i must admit. it's a bit of brain-damaged product from all points of view, and voip implementation is not an exception.

p.s. i'm running s8300/g700 in our office for over an year now. the only kind of problem with ip telephony i've seen is when user accidentally disconnects ethernet cable from a phone and then call me wondering why phone says 'disconnected'.

 

[IPGuru]

Ethernet is a technology inherently unsuitable for voice trafic

QOS switches greatly reduce the chances of data collision & prioritise Voice packets, but notheing can 100% garantee that all packets will be deliverd on time

VOIP soloutions can work as well as TDM if correctly planned and managed but it still does not change the fact taht dedicated TDM is more better suited for voice trafic.

The sensible solution is to use the correct solution in the correct locations.

your coment about the IPO being a brain damaged product clealy shows your Bias & lack of understanding in this product. V2.1 was unfortunatly a badly flawed release which has now been rectified, prior to this almost every problem site I have seen has been due to incompetent instalation.

 

[Spanning]

IPGURU , thank you, you just made my day i want say who your employers are , you have just publicly insulted your emplyers and your work mates that they are incompetant installers.

Lets hope they don`t use this forum.

 

[IPGuru]

with over 500 sites working without any major issues I do not think I have insulted any of my collegues.

As I have said V2.1 had mahjor flaws, now that V2.1 is more stable (but still has some issues) I would be happy to stand by any of our sites.

the majority of which have not required a single engineer visit since instalation.
The problem sites I refered to were infact installed by other maintainers, re-reading my post I see that I had not made this point clear, thankyou for highlighting my ommision

 

[Spanning]

Watch it mate you have just insulted me and all the other maintainers.

 

[IPGuru]

No, not you, just the guys who go out having read the docs & do not realise that the system may be simple, but it is deceptivly simple.

Or have you never seen a CFG that has clearly been installed by the customers IT dept, without suficent backgrond knowledge to avoid the common pitfalls (invalid characters in user names etc.)

& this is not an insult to the customers either, they are not telecoms engineers & would not be expected to understand the quirks, Likewise if I tried to work on thier products I would probably make an even biger hash of things.
Fortunatly I find that with a little instruction most costomers are able to pickup the IPO to a supprisingly good standard.

And again, "Incompetent" was a poor choice of words, Inexperienced would have been a better choice. that is why forums like this exist, to enable all of us to improve our knowledge base - answers in this forum have saved my bacon on a number of occasions even if the question was not originaly mine.

Hopefully this is now a suffiecent appology for my poor choice of words made in responce to a post that clearly insulted all of us here

 

[crashtest1000]

While you guys argue about TDM and VoIP you forget that IP Office is all about applications Try to do these sorts of applications on a S8?? for a site of say 100 uses or less and the cost goes over the moon. This is just a list off the top of my head

Phone Manager Pro,lite and soft phone
Voicemail Pro ,Lite
AA+IVA
TAPI free for each user
MS/CRM integration
CBC
CCC
Conference center
Call Recording storage center
Text to speech
Voice mail integration with email.
Small community networking
Hot desking

Oh yes and it supports VoIP if you need it.