Photos and Pro Printing from InDesign CS2

[DarrenSPhoto]

I've been doing photography for a number of years and recently, a client for whom I provided a number of photos, has asked me to design some layouts for possible magazine style brochures/books. So I decided to go with Adobe's InDesign CS2.

Currently I'm using an 8MP camera and at 300 dpi it's largest print size is just under 8.5x11 inches.

First, I imported a JPG file that was 72dpi. I assumed InDesign would automatically reduce the dimensional size the image to fit on the 8.5x11 inch page, but it did not, it was huge and clearly much larger than the 8.5x11inch document. But that did not make any sense to me. Obviously in Photoshop, when you convert a 72dpi image to 300dpi, its dimensions change to account for the density of the image.

But why didn't this happen in InDesign...

Does InDesign have a default dpi or lpi? And if so, what is it? And Can I change it?

 

[Ekwoman]

When you place the 72dpi image in InDesign, don't just click with the loaded cursor. Instead, click (hold) and drag the loaded cursor to the size you want (8.5 x 11 or whatever), then release. You will have made a frame the size you want...but the picture inside is still at 100%. Use the Object > Fitting menu to fit the content proportionally to the frame. Or, in CS2, you can choose Fill Frame Proportionally. Since you've reduced the dimensions, your resolution will increase. Check in the Info palette to see the actual ppi and the effective ppi of the photo.

The printing resolution in InDesign doesn't exist until you go to print or export. That's all based on the output device.

Hope that helps some. Photoshop and InDesign are two entirely different creatures that serve very different purposes...therefore they don't work in the same manner as the other.

 

[jmgalvin]

I've always converted the size in Photoshop - using print size without resampling so I could be sure that the print dpi woudl come to the magic 300 dpi.

It's really just habit born of years, but it always gives you the desired result.

By the way, if this is going to pro print, make sure you work photoshop in cmyk, not rgb and save in cmyk (or grayscale if necessary).

Using OSX 10.3.9 on a G4

 

[jimoblak]

Does InDesign have a default dpi or lpi? And if so, what is it? And Can I change it?

If no ppi is defined in the file, InDesign assumes JPG images are around 72ppi. InDesign can read JPG resolution data if you save the resolution/dimensions from Photoshop. Some other programs may allow you to define resolution in the JPG file but InDesign may not interpret it.

make sure you work photoshop in cmyk

Shouldn't RGB images be used if you make proper use of color profiles? RGB gives you more headroom and color profiles can be assigned according to the output intent. What happens if you are printing to hexachrome? Converting to CMYK would dumb down the color.

 

[jmgalvin]

Jim: on teh cmyk - teh original question said that it would be for a magazine type brochure so I assumed that cmyk would be the normal output.

Using OSX 10.3.9 on a G4

 

[jimoblak]

InDesign can produce standard CMYK output from placed RGB images. Why bloat filesize and reduce color gamut as a CMYK image prior to placing? Simply saying 'convert to CMYK' is advice even I have used in the past but with color management being such a key element of the recent Creative Suite, such a generalization does not always apply, especially if the wrong color profile is attached to that CMYK image.

http://www.gammag.com/BackIssues/artbgam0509featseparate

One thought we skipped over earlier... it is okay to directly place JPG digital photos in InDesign, but if you use Photoshop to make any changes to image size, color mode, or any other general edits, do not resave the photo as a JPG file. Each save of a JPG file diminishes its quality. Save them as TIFF or any other lossless image format.

 

[boraparis]

To jimoblak
TIFF is not good advice. From my own experience PSD and only.
CMYK, not RGB for publications!

 

[jimoblak]

boraparis, the difference in 'not good advice' and good advice is that when good advice is offered, it is offered with a reason or explanation. I noted that JPG is not an ideal format if edits are being made to the photo. If editing photos, a lossless image format (such as TIFF) should be used to maintain quality. Your assertion that TIFF is not ideal is pure malarky. If there is a reason to this nonsense, please explain. I'm here to learn just like everyone else. I just smell something funny.

Sure, if you are clueless about color profiles, stick to CMYK. If you want the best output, retain the wider color gamut of an RGB image with the appropriate color profiles. InDesign was created to support RGB so the idea that you must first convert to CMYK is nonsense.

See item #5 on page 448 at the following link for Adobe's comment on RGB images in InDesign:

http://www.adobe.com/education/pdf/cib/idcs/id_cs_cib_13.pdf

InDesign should respect the color profile of the RGB image and properly convert it to CMYK for you. There is no need to waste your time and hard drive space by preparing it as CMYK.

We're in the 21st century now. Enjoy it. For further info:

http://www.google.com/search?q=rgb+workflow+indesign

 

[boraparis]

jimoblak
PSD is flexible it's main reason to use it. You can edit your image at any time using all power of Photoshop.
CMYK - hm.... Can I get at least one link of commercial printing provider who use RGB working spaces? If we are talking about magazine printing even for simple color paper printing all of them use CMYK. Even when you use mixed RGB and CMYK workflow in InDesign, later it's converted to CMYK when output to a PDF or PostScript when it goes to press. Unfortunately at that time you can't control your colors. Why not to use CMYK even if RGB has larger color gamut

 

[jmgalvin]

boraparis: TIFF is fine & will just open back up in photoshop for editing, with no quality loss. Remember, before Indesign became popular, tiff was THE format for rasters going to print. I do confess to being rather conservative in my approach to stuff. If a folder is going to be repurposed into something like Quark, the tiff will be far less problematical.

I do agree on the cmyk. My approach has always been to make the printer's job as easy and surefire as possible so I don't end up redoing things. I think using cmyk helps in that regard.



Using OSX 10.3.9 on a G4

 

[DarrenSPhoto]

Thank you. I really appreciate the feedback and I now Understand what's going on.

 

[jimoblak]

Can I get at least one link of commercial printing provider who use RGB working spaces?

I already provided such. The first linked article shows how Sports Illustrated uses an RGB workflow. Does a printer that serves 3 million subscribers qualify as 'commercial printing' for you? And it really does not matter if a printer claims that they have an RGB workflow or not: InDesign can output CMYK from placed RGB images. This is explained in the Classroom in a Book excerpt linked above that was apparently missed. You don't need any extra hardware or software to use this better workflow; just the willingness to abandon silly concepts from the past.

If you use CMYK, what color profile do you assign? Without addressing color profiles, telling someone to convert to CMYK is meaningless.

If you are not familiar with CS2, read here:

http://www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/pdfs/cs2_color_workflows.pdf

Should Darren trust some guys quibbling in a forum or clear, detailed documentation offered by Adobe? I would like to see any authoritative reference for how RGB to CMYK conversion in Photoshop CS2 is any different than the RGB to CMYK conversion done with InDesign CS2 output. It is just silly to suggest manual conversion of RGB to CMYK with CS2. Welcome to the 21st century. Don't dumb down placed images to CMYK if you don't have to.

 

[boraparis]

Come on jimoblak, 21 century... I'd like to see... any authoritative...
Would you like to see this?

http://www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/pdfs/cs2_color_workflows.pdf

It's common mistake assume that there is not any difference from RGB to CMYK with InDesign CS2 output and RGB to CMYK in Photoshop CS2 and bla-bla-bla..
IT'S DIFFERENT!!! You can't see it on display.. shortly, read the article carefully, please, 21 century... and say all your students the same.. it's huge differense
Wo! it's the same article. Did you read it? Don't think so

 

[jimoblak]

boraparis, perhaps as a good exercise for your students, you can direct them to this thread and ask them to independently determine the truth about RGB workflows in CS2. It is not a myth.

I can no longer argue with belligerent ignorance.

 

[jimoblak]

For boraparis' students:

http://www.adobe.com/products/indesign/pdfs/IDCS2 _whatsnew.pdf

See page 17 under the section: 'Safe CMYK workflows'.

It could not be explained any better. If your instructor tries to argue this fact presented by Adobe, ask for a refund of your tuition.

Things changed with CS2. Instructors should too.

 

[boraparis]

jimoblak, I do appreciate your instructor’s effort on Adobe products and providing us with links and related documents. From the payable education service provider point of vies doing such things is just high level of generosity. At least you do not have to worry about requests of refund. You provide good service according to instructions and official documents as 99% of certified instructors do, who do not have commercial printing experience first hand as well as own point of view. It’s fine.
From practical situations…. Check it out…
Trick7: Convert RGB to CMYK for PDFs
If your workflow (or service bureau) requires that your PDFs contain only CMYK
items (not RGB), you can do that in one pass — regardless of whether your page
items are RGB or CMYK. In QuarkXPress 6 or 7, and InDesign CS2, just
make sure the CMYK output options are enabled, then output to a Post-
Script file and run that file through Acrobat Distiller. Here’s how: in Quark-
XPress’s Print dialog, choose Composite CMYK from the Setup menu; in InDesign’s Print dialog, choose PostScript File from the Printer pop-up menu, then click Output in the left-hand pane and choose Composite CMYK from the Color pop-up. Both applications will convert all RGB and spot color items to CMYK using the current color management settings when you print to a PostScript file. Then run that file through Distiller.
Ops.. I don’t provide with link, sorry… here it is

http://dei.printusa.com/tipsandtricks.asp

This is “real” situation. Tell me please, have you ever meet such advice from Help or official Adobe documents? I don’t think so.
Bad thing is: nobody knows which graphics can you apply such procedure for without degradation final result.
Let me point out that it works fine without converting RGB to CMYK in Photoshop and without safe CMYK workflow. If graphics comes with transparency- result unpredictable (this is from my own experience too). And Adobe officially declares it’s “Unpredictable”. Do you need official link? Well, our discussion will go to the dead end in this case. Thinks goes worth when transparency comes with blending modes and opacity. I’m not talking about type of swatches which can be apply to, let say shadow if you will. What if this swatch is RGB? What if… what if..There are millions of situations and nobody will argue that there is no one “magic” method to avoid discrepancies. However there are practical (sorry, not theoretical) procedures to follow in order to create high quality prints using power of InDesing CS2 Suit as much as possible without headache. Here it is the same document you and I have provided:

http://www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/pdfs/cs2_color_workflows.pdf

Chapter 2: CMYK Commercial Print Workflow.
This workflow is most common (in real life) in North America. Choice is yours.

PS. In terms of providing refundable education service follow instructions, not advice first hand, otherwise students will sue you.

 

[jmgalvin]

Come on guys! There's no need for fighting. It's very rare on tektips.

The original guy just wanted to know how to put a picture into Indesign. That's not worth fighting over.

Using OSX 10.3.9 on a G4

 

[jimoblak]

I apologize for ever addressing boraparis directly. I gave up arguing a few posts ago.

 

[garrydigimaster]

Don't know if this post is still active but I thought I would add my two cents. As a professional advertising photographer and digital imaging designer in a high end studio I must agree with boraparis on converting CMYK in Photoshop before importing to Indesign. As all are aware the image will suffer dynamic losses when converting because of the smaller gamut of CMYK. After conversion in Photoshop the image can be optimized for density and colour and soft proofed on a good calibrated monitor utilizing image adjustments like curves, shadow/highlight and judicious use of colour saturation. If you let Indesign make the conversion for you the CMYK image will not have the dynamic range and contrast of the original RGB image. If you use photoshop and adjust after conversion your printed CMYK image will be a far closer approximation of the fuller range original RGB. It takes more time but the results are worth it.

 

[jimoblak]

garrydigimaster, you are relaying how you work without a color managed workflow. With color management, your RGB images softproof onscreen in InDesign just as they do in Photoshop.

As a professional advertising photographer and digital imaging designer in a high end studio, you should be well aware that the image can still be optimized for density and colour and soft proofed on a good calibrated monitor utilizing image adjustments like curves, shadow/highlight and judicious use of colour saturation in RGB mode but while using a CMYK profile. This is how professional artists make use of all filters and functions while viewing their art in a CMYK colorspace. If you are in CMYK mode, you have dumbed down many of the functions of Photoshop.

I have asked ths before and no one answered: To those that herald the 'CMYK only or death!' workflow, what color profiles are you purposefully assigning to your images and to your overall document output in InDesign CS2? Are you even using IDCS2? If you do not know about profiles then converting to CMYK first does nothing for you. A CMYK image with one color profile is going to appear onscreen and print much differently than the same CMYK image with another color profile.

As was noted prior... if you have no clue about color management, use CMYK images. If you use InDesign CS2 with a color managed workflow, then you may retain your images in RGB.