...thought this was an interesting piece in light of recent discussions re: "politically correct"...
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PC redux 15
- Thread starter carrr
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4
- #2
sleipnir214
Programmer
This is ridiculous.
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions: TANSTAAFL!!
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions: TANSTAAFL!!
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BJCooperIT
Programmer
Ludicrous! The swastika symbol, while made infamous by Nazi Germany, is not their private domain.
"A form of the swastika has been used in the Buddhist religion to symbolize the feet or footprints of the Buddha." Probably for hundreds of years before the Nazis.
This would be akin to requesting that the cross character be removed because the Ku Klux Klan uses it as their symbol.
Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw
Consultant/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle 8.1.7 - Windows 2000
"A form of the swastika has been used in the Buddhist religion to symbolize the feet or footprints of the Buddha." Probably for hundreds of years before the Nazis.
This would be akin to requesting that the cross character be removed because the Ku Klux Klan uses it as their symbol.
Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw
Consultant/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle 8.1.7 - Windows 2000
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Chance1234
IS-IT--Management
OMG!
reading this i went straight into word and discoverd not only the swastika but i could also produce 'KKK'
i have written to microsoft asking them for a fix to stop me typing three K's on my keyboard. after this post im taking the key off of my keyboard just in case.
Filmmaker, gentleman and pearls before swine fan
reading this i went straight into word and discoverd not only the swastika but i could also produce 'KKK'
i have written to microsoft asking them for a fix to stop me typing three K's on my keyboard. after this post im taking the key off of my keyboard just in case.
Filmmaker, gentleman and pearls before swine fan
mattKnight
Programmer
>Ludicrous! The swastika symbol, while made infamous by Nazi Germany, is not their private domain.
Not really, I suspect that most people are only aware of the Nazi connotation. I ceratinly was (until I read the thread)
It is not the truth, but people's perception of it that counts. MS are only protecting themselves from being associated with the Nazi's (either neo or otherwise)
There are probably legal ramifications too, especially in export versions (to Germany where I believe the symbol is banned)
Take Care
Matt
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
Not really, I suspect that most people are only aware of the Nazi connotation. I ceratinly was (until I read the thread)
It is not the truth, but people's perception of it that counts. MS are only protecting themselves from being associated with the Nazi's (either neo or otherwise)
There are probably legal ramifications too, especially in export versions (to Germany where I believe the symbol is banned)
Take Care
Matt
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
sleipnir214
Programmer
A lot of innocuous things took on sinister connotations after WWII.
In the United States, the salute to the flag to be rendered during the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance is to place the right hand over the heart.
At the beginning of the 20th century, the traditional salute was to extend the right hand and arm outward toward the flag. After the association of that salute with Nazism and Fascism, the salute was changed.
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions: TANSTAAFL!!
In the United States, the salute to the flag to be rendered during the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance is to place the right hand over the heart.
At the beginning of the 20th century, the traditional salute was to extend the right hand and arm outward toward the flag. After the association of that salute with Nazism and Fascism, the salute was changed.
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions: TANSTAAFL!!
Chance1234
IS-IT--Management
swasti a is still currently used in china quite a lot, coca cola used it in a mar eting campaign out there recently.
damm it ! i just lent on my eyboard and inadvertenly typed '666' am now removing that ey until microst come up with a fix.
Filmmaker, gentleman and pearls before swine fan
damm it ! i just lent on my eyboard and inadvertenly typed '666' am now removing that ey until microst come up with a fix.
Filmmaker, gentleman and pearls before swine fan
Ridiculous is an understatement... in fact, I think in some ways it's actually problematic. As stated here, the symbol predates the third reich, and is still used in other realms. Also as stated, most people don't know about any of that. To me, Microsoft's apology is in some way legitimizing the third reich's use of the swastika. (I have no problem with the tool to remove it, if you don't want it on your computer, it should be easy for you to remove, but the whole "Oh my goodness, how could we have done that!" is what I find annoying)
yick.
Oh I can't wait until the days of smart image software, and programs which can do a better job understanding content.... that KKK suggestion may not be far off.
-Rob
yick.
Oh I can't wait until the days of smart image software, and programs which can do a better job understanding content.... that KKK suggestion may not be far off.
-Rob
Chance1234
IS-IT--Management
A ter loo i g at wi gdi g a d a ew other o t , I ha e ta e the tep to remo e a y o e di g po ible ey o my eyboard u til Micro o t come up with a ix
Filmmaker, gentleman and pearls before swine fan
Filmmaker, gentleman and pearls before swine fan
- Thread starter
- #10
sleipnir214,BJCooperIT,
Agreed.
I feel this a(nother) PR move by Microsoft..."see how sensitive we are."
mattKnight,
RE: Not really, I suspect that most people are only aware of the Nazi connotation. I ceratinly was (until I read the thread)
(...this is not meant as a dig, so please don't take it that way.) Simply because many/most people are aware of only one connotation does not absolve them of a responsibility to explore something before hopping on the proverbial bandwagon.
I'm of the mindset that the longer we continue to empower words/symbols with negative/offensive connotations, the moreso they will become embedded in our collective consciousness as just that.
Agreed.
I feel this a(nother) PR move by Microsoft..."see how sensitive we are."
mattKnight,
RE: Not really, I suspect that most people are only aware of the Nazi connotation. I ceratinly was (until I read the thread)
(...this is not meant as a dig, so please don't take it that way.) Simply because many/most people are aware of only one connotation does not absolve them of a responsibility to explore something before hopping on the proverbial bandwagon.
I'm of the mindset that the longer we continue to empower words/symbols with negative/offensive connotations, the moreso they will become embedded in our collective consciousness as just that.
cryptogro4
MIS
PC has become absurd.
A high school girl, after seeing mexican clubs, black clubs, italian clubs, chess clubs, fat clubs, bow-tie clubs, blonde clubs, etc, wanted to start a white club at school - since there was already 23 others.
Guess what! She ended up transferring to another school because of harassment. The school, of course did not support her, but I believe suspended her for a couple days.
The world is messed up.
A high school girl, after seeing mexican clubs, black clubs, italian clubs, chess clubs, fat clubs, bow-tie clubs, blonde clubs, etc, wanted to start a white club at school - since there was already 23 others.
Guess what! She ended up transferring to another school because of harassment. The school, of course did not support her, but I believe suspended her for a couple days.
The world is messed up.
- Thread starter
- #12
<sarcasm>
I motion that in a gesture to Palestinians, we remove the Star of David symbol from the Wingdings symbol set.
Further, as part of the War on Terror, we should pull the bomb with lit fuse symbol from the same.
And...while we're at it, that skull and crossbones symbol kind of scares me...not to mention glorifies piracy.
</sarcasm>
I motion that in a gesture to Palestinians, we remove the Star of David symbol from the Wingdings symbol set.
Further, as part of the War on Terror, we should pull the bomb with lit fuse symbol from the same.
And...while we're at it, that skull and crossbones symbol kind of scares me...not to mention glorifies piracy.
</sarcasm>
- Thread starter
- #13
...or maybe MS is just trying to make up for a long history of anti-Semitism?
MasterRacker
Active member
Lets, see, I don't like letters because they can be arranged into offensive words, so I think we should get rid of all off them - but wait, you can still speak words which can be used to offend someone, so we have to get rid of all words, but wait people can still find other ways to offend someone so we need to get rid of all people...
Jeff
The future is already here - it's just not widely distributed yet...
Jeff
The future is already here - it's just not widely distributed yet...
BJCooperIT
Programmer
I cannot speak for other countries but I feel that here in the United States we have a tendency to take Political Correctness to extremes.
[ul][li]No longer can we name a high school baseball team the "Indians" because it might offend.[/li]
[li]Now we say "Developmentally Challenged" because the term "Retarded" morphed into an insult.[/li]
[li]The "Garbage Man" is now a "Sanitation Engineer" - more syllables, less service.[/li]
[li]Now any adult that taps a misbehaving kid's backside is in danger of being locked up for child abuse.[/li]
[li]The burglar who breaks a window to get into your home and gets cut by broken glass can sue you and win![/li][/ul]
How sad that we often take a valid need for change to the edge of fanaticism.
The issue with the swastika should be a matter of choice - if the symbol offends then you can remove it. Who is MS to censor it for us?
Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw
Consultant/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle 8.1.7 - Windows 2000
[ul][li]No longer can we name a high school baseball team the "Indians" because it might offend.[/li]
[li]Now we say "Developmentally Challenged" because the term "Retarded" morphed into an insult.[/li]
[li]The "Garbage Man" is now a "Sanitation Engineer" - more syllables, less service.[/li]
[li]Now any adult that taps a misbehaving kid's backside is in danger of being locked up for child abuse.[/li]
[li]The burglar who breaks a window to get into your home and gets cut by broken glass can sue you and win![/li][/ul]
How sad that we often take a valid need for change to the edge of fanaticism.
The issue with the swastika should be a matter of choice - if the symbol offends then you can remove it. Who is MS to censor it for us?
Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw
Consultant/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle 8.1.7 - Windows 2000
- Thread starter
- #16
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- #17
"A high school girl...wanted to start a white club at school - since there was already 23 others."
Every single President and Vice-President of the USA has been white. The last election saw the first serious Jewish candidate, and just for the Vice-President, it is moot if a Jew would be electable regardless of personal merits. It was a major innovation when non-whites were given big jobs in the US cabinet. And it's not that much better in Britain: Disraeli could be Prime Minister even though everyone classed him as Jewish, but MPs had to be of the Christians, at leat nomnially, up until the 1870s.
As for swastikas, if you see them on the heraldry of the embassy of the Republic of India, they are part of Hindu cultural heritage. In isolation and in a western context, it is clearly a racist symbol. And we still have victims of Naziism alive and maybe using computers.
'Political corectness' addresses real problems. It sometimes does so in a silly jargon-ridden way, but that is standard for both business and government nowadays.
Every single President and Vice-President of the USA has been white. The last election saw the first serious Jewish candidate, and just for the Vice-President, it is moot if a Jew would be electable regardless of personal merits. It was a major innovation when non-whites were given big jobs in the US cabinet. And it's not that much better in Britain: Disraeli could be Prime Minister even though everyone classed him as Jewish, but MPs had to be of the Christians, at leat nomnially, up until the 1870s.
As for swastikas, if you see them on the heraldry of the embassy of the Republic of India, they are part of Hindu cultural heritage. In isolation and in a western context, it is clearly a racist symbol. And we still have victims of Naziism alive and maybe using computers.
'Political corectness' addresses real problems. It sometimes does so in a silly jargon-ridden way, but that is standard for both business and government nowadays.
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CajunCenturion
Programmer
"As for swastikas, if you see them on the heraldry of the embassy of the Republic of India, they are part of Hindu cultural heritage. In isolation and in a western context, it is clearly a racist symbol."
First of all, I am not aware of any relationship between the swastika and Hinduism, perhaps you can enlighten me. It is however a relgious symbol of Buddhism.
Therefore, I think that the ACLU should file suit on behalf of the Buddhists on the grounds that removing the swastika is removing a symbol of their religion and violating their first amendment rights with respect to freedom of religion.
Then the ACLU can sue on the grounds that keeping the symbol is having is discriminatory against those who were victimized by Naziism and racist in nature.
The ACLU vs the ACLU - what a concept!! Would that be a policially correct trial or what?
Political correctness does not address real problems, it creates problems, it creates confusion, it actually, via backlash, fosters animosity, and costs everybody both time and money, and emotional anguish.
To address the real problems, you first have to define the real problems. The swastika is not the problem. It symbolizes what is best in humanity through its religious connotations, and the worst of humanity through Naziism.
No, the real problems include the narrow-mindedness of those people who only see one side of the issue. The lack of education of those who don't even know there is another side of the issue. The inability of people to put things into perspective. Like it or not Naziism is a part of our (humanity) history and the swastika is part of that history. We should not hide ourselves from our own history because we don't like what we see. In other threads many have postulated on the need for better education. How can we learn from our mistakes, how can we properly educate the next generation not to repeat the mistakes of the past if we remove any references to that mistake from our history? Especially, when in the course of that same education, that very same symbol has a much richer and positive history.
Education, tolerance, moderation, rational thinking, and other forms of reasonabless are what address the real problems.
Better get back to IT. What is the politically correct thing to do? I submit that the proper course of action is to do nothing, don't take sides. The symbol is not the issue, and the IT community should not make it an issue by taking sides. To again reference another thread, not having that symbol available fails to meet the real needs of a religous population who are being denied its use by an English speaking western-centric world.
Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
First of all, I am not aware of any relationship between the swastika and Hinduism, perhaps you can enlighten me. It is however a relgious symbol of Buddhism.
Therefore, I think that the ACLU should file suit on behalf of the Buddhists on the grounds that removing the swastika is removing a symbol of their religion and violating their first amendment rights with respect to freedom of religion.
Then the ACLU can sue on the grounds that keeping the symbol is having is discriminatory against those who were victimized by Naziism and racist in nature.
The ACLU vs the ACLU - what a concept!! Would that be a policially correct trial or what?
Political correctness does not address real problems, it creates problems, it creates confusion, it actually, via backlash, fosters animosity, and costs everybody both time and money, and emotional anguish.
To address the real problems, you first have to define the real problems. The swastika is not the problem. It symbolizes what is best in humanity through its religious connotations, and the worst of humanity through Naziism.
No, the real problems include the narrow-mindedness of those people who only see one side of the issue. The lack of education of those who don't even know there is another side of the issue. The inability of people to put things into perspective. Like it or not Naziism is a part of our (humanity) history and the swastika is part of that history. We should not hide ourselves from our own history because we don't like what we see. In other threads many have postulated on the need for better education. How can we learn from our mistakes, how can we properly educate the next generation not to repeat the mistakes of the past if we remove any references to that mistake from our history? Especially, when in the course of that same education, that very same symbol has a much richer and positive history.
Education, tolerance, moderation, rational thinking, and other forms of reasonabless are what address the real problems.
Better get back to IT. What is the politically correct thing to do? I submit that the proper course of action is to do nothing, don't take sides. The symbol is not the issue, and the IT community should not make it an issue by taking sides. To again reference another thread, not having that symbol available fails to meet the real needs of a religous population who are being denied its use by an English speaking western-centric world.
Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
BJCooperIT
Programmer
Amen, CajunCenturion, amen. Ooops... am I allowed to say that?
Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw
Consultant/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle 8.1.7 - Windows 2000
Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw
Consultant/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle 8.1.7 - Windows 2000
lionelhill
Technical User
So now we've sorted all that out, please can I have a tool from microsoft to put the wretched thing back in again?
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