Numbering/Lettering Format Issues in Microsoft 2007 Word? 4

[mariep]

I am working with a document that I did not create. In it are different lists of A-C, 1-3, etc. The problem I'm running into is that I'll try to fix the margins on A-C, but then 1-3 will change their margins. It appears they are associated in some way.

One way I found to fix it is to make the margin change on A-C, but then CTRL+Z and the auto changes will go away. But I would have to do that for A, B, C, etc.

Finally, when I go back into the original document, everything goes back to the way that it is. It doesn't seem to save the changes. It's very frustrating and we've had everyone in our office working on it, even IT.

 

[fumei]

The problem I'm running into is that I'll try to fix the margins on A-C, but then 1-3 will change their margins. It appears they are associated in some way. "

Very likely the 1-3 style is based on the A-C style, in which case, yes, they are definitely associated.

"when I go back into the original document,"

What do you mean go back into the original document? Are you using a document as a template?

Gerry

 

[mariep]

Yes, this is a template document that uses a lot of tables in order to create format. Everytime we enter into the document and make changes, weird things happen - like margins changing.

For example, we have A.--- at the top of the document. We set it at a particular margin and want it there. However, for B-T, we want those at a different margin. But everytime we change B, A changes with it (unless I fix it one by one using Ctrl+Z)... but that's a lot of work considering how many times we open this template and modify it.

So is there a way to modify the generic version so that changes wouldn't affect the settings of other areas of the document?

 

[fumei]

1. "Yes, this is a template document that uses a lot of tables in order to create format. Everytime we enter into the document and make changes, weird things happen - like margins changing."

It is generally not a good idea to use a document as a template. Use a real template - i.e a .dot file.

2. "For example, we have A.--- at the top of the document. We set it at a particular margin and want it there. However, for B-T, we want those at a different margin. But everytime we change B, A changes with it "

This sounds like manual formatting. Do not do this...ever.

3. It is also likely that you have "Automatically update" checked for the style. While this can have its uses, most professionals do NOT use this.

4. Since you most likely do have the following styles as "based on" the previous style - very commonly done - I would recommend not doing this.

I rarely have styles using "based on". Sometimes, but only when I very clearly and specifically want them that way. In fact, most often when creating styles, I have them based on "no style". This makes the new style totally independent of any style...including the default "based on", Normal.

5. "For example, we have A.--- at the top of the document. We set it at a particular margin and want it there. However, for B-T, we want those at a different margin. "

Then make separate styles if you need to. Have B-T not based on A.

6. "that's a lot of work considering how many times we open this template and modify it."

Indeed. You are not using templates properly. Templates should NEVER be opened and modified by users. Ever. This is in fact the main point of using templates. The template itself is designed, and only the designer should ever open it. Users use the template. The users modify the documents created by the template, but never th etemplate itself.

7. "So is there a way to modify the generic version so that changes wouldn't affect the settings of other areas of the document? "

No. That is a contradiction. If it is generic, then the whole purpose of having it generic is that it DOES affect the rest of the document. That is, in fact, the point of styles.

Gerry

 

[mariep]

Thank you so much Gerry (sorry for the delayed response). What you say rings a lot of bells, but I am not sure how to create different styles.

Thanks!

 

[fumei]

but I am not sure how to create different styles."

The same way you create styles in the first place.

Gotta ask. Who made the styles in the first place?

Also, what version of Word?

For version 2002 and 2003, use the Styles and Formatting task pane and click New Style. You will get the New Style dialog. If you want to NOT use "based on", click the "Style based on" dropdown, and scroll up to (no style).

By default, the attributes (the formatting) of the current paragraph - i.e. the paragraph the Selection is in - will be the attributes of the new style (if it is a Paragraph style).

However, look at the Style based on. If it is based on Normal (often the case), then you will see the dreaded "Normal + other attributes. If you make it based on {no style), then the description will just describe the actual format.

I am probably losing you here. Let me see if I can sum up something.

1. Styles are named formats. The format attributes cover all possible format of the object the style can be applied to. That is, a Paragraph style can cover all possible format of a paragraph (space before, space after, font, font size, indenting, margin alignment, numbering, bullets yadda yadda yadda). A Character style can cover all possible format of characters (font attributes).

But essentially that is it: a style is a named format.

2. Styles have inheritance. If a new style is created and it is based on a style - as it often is - then the attributes of the "parent" style are passed along.

So...if you have a style "Yadda" that has an indent of 1.5 inches (or 2.3 cm...whatever), and you want a style "BigYadda" to have an indent of 2.5 inches, you have two choices.

1. make BigYadda based on Yadda, and change the indent of BigYadda to 2.5 inches.

OR...

2. make BigYadda based on (no style) - thus having NO inheritance back to Yadda - and make it indent to 2.5 inches.

What is the difference? In both cases, BigYadda has an indent of 2.5 inches.

Except...suppose you determine that Yadda needs to be bold. So you change Yadda to be bold.

Hey presto! If you used #1, then all your BigYadda paragraphs will also become bold as it is....based on "Yadda".

This is inheritance.

Yes, you could go in and explicitly change BigYadda to NOT be bold - and that would work. However, in that case, the question is: WHAT is, exactly, the point of the inherited attributes if you do not actually want them?

I know, I know, this sounds all so complicated, but it really isn't, and believe me, once you really get it, it makes using Word so much easier.

Here is a further hint: yes, documents can use a lot of styles. Using styles properly though makes you REALLY look at format. It encourages you to make cleaner and more consistent, and more simple, formatting. IMHO, it makes documents more professional. Sometimes people use WAAAAAY too much individualized formatting. When this is done manually, it is a nightmare.

Sometimes it turns out that you need MORE styles than you thought you would; some times it turns out you need less.

In all cases though, it is better to use styles. It forces you to really see the document. Here is an example.

Say you have a bulleted list. Visually, bulleted lists look better if they are a wee bit tighter (the line spacing between) than "normal" text.

ASIDE: there are Ph.D level studies/writings on how humans read. Technical writing has VERY different visual requirements from, say, a novel. We read differently, our actual movement of eyes, depending on what it is we are reading.

Ok, so you make a style with smaller Space After.

Except, that makes the Space After too small when you end the list, and you are going back to "normal" text.

So....

myBulletList (space after = 5 pts)
myBulletListEnd (space after = 12 pts)

In this case, I would make myBulletListEnd as based on. The ONLY thing I am changing is the space after, so I can use it for the LAST item in the list. Other than that, I want it to look exactly like myBulletList. I want the same indent, the same bullet, the same font, the same font size etc. etc. In this case, inheritance is precisely what I want.

So going back to your OP:

In it are different lists of A-C, 1-3, etc. The problem I'm running into is that I'll try to fix the margins on A-C, but then 1-3 will change their margins. It appears they are associated in some way.

Yes they are. There is inheritance.

Gerry

 

[cckens]

Geez, Gerry, if this ain't an FAQ it bloody well should be!

Star, for the typing alone (not to mention the info) and archiving this puppy!

Ken

"cckens is a nick... why the H-E- double-hockey-sticks am I using a nick for a name? Am I afraid of who I am?"
-me
"...don't know why, but I think of chickens when I see that nick...maybe even choking chickens???"
-Tony (wahnula)

 

[cmeagan656]

Awesome, Gerry! Thanks for the info. I'm archiving this thread too.

Cheers.