Nordex 25 pair and networking... 1

[karmic]

A company called me with network issues today, went in and seen what the local phone company has done.

They have 60 workstations, mix of cat5/cat6 cable and 3 gigabit switches with fiber links to 2 offices.

The phone company came in, cut all the cat5/cat6 cables and terminated them to a bicks phone panel, 2 pairs are jumped to another panel then out thru a 25 pair nordex cable and into premade ends that enter the switches direct. Make sense?

There are only 2 pairs entering the switch, and standard 24 awg wire jumpering around the panel. Now so far, we have 4 breaks/connections in the cable, separation of the pairs, and it drops to 2 pairs into the switch...

Can someone verify for me that this is not the right way to do things???

~ K.I.S.S - Don't make it any more complex than it has to be ~

 

[mikeydidit]

It sounds like they robbed pairs off the data cables to install some sort of small phone system. It also sounds like you need to pull in new cables to straighten this mess out.

The phone company may have been told to by the customer who knows. Either way it sounds like you are comming in behind someone who didn't know much about data or high speed network cabling.

You may be able to patch together something that will work for them by adding a Cat6 patch panel, but I would try to fix it back up right for them by installing new cables, and patch panels.

Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.
Thomas A. Edison

For the best response to a question, read faq690-6594

 

[karmic]

no, phone system is totally separate... the phones are not involved with this at all.

I'm shaking my head as to why this was done.

~ K.I.S.S - Don't make it any more complex than it has to be ~

 

[dagwoodsystems]

Not only is that totally crazy, but is a complete ruin of what sounded like decent CAT5e/6 terminations.

Let me get this straight. Some clown takes known working (I assume) network runs and terminates them on BIX blocks. New BIX blocks exceed the CAT6 recommendations, but a voice grade block probably would not.

Now we all know that half duplex ethernet (without future support for power over ethernet) only needs the orange and green pairs. Knowing that, the tech peels off two pair of NORDX feeder cable at a time and somehow terminates them on an ethernet switch. Again, NORDX makes a 25-pair CAT5e compliant feeder cable which may or may not be used here.

Until this point, I've given this tech a whole lot of latitude about what materials he/she was using. But it stops when I hear that "standard 24 AWG wire" is used to jumper between station blocks and ethernet switch blocks.

If ordinary jumper wire--particularly if pair separation has taken place--doesn't destroy the level rating of the run, I don't know what would. I'm also very skeptical about separating out pairs of the feeder. What did the guy do, terminate them with RJ heads and make an octopus cable?

I don't even know what to say about that. Seriously. The while thing is just plain weird. But to answer your question directly: No, that is NOT the right way to do things. Not in this universe, and not in some evil parallel Star Trek universe.

 

[karmic]

Thanks all.

Just wanted the verification to make sure i'm not missing some new fangled way to do things here. I think this will be my job next weekend, to remove everything done.

"What did the guy do, terminate them with RJ heads and make an octopus cable?"

Thats exactly what he did, each head with 2 pairs. This is a major phone/ISP/cell provider in canada mind you. He tells me they do it all the time now

I either totally rewire to the terminals or put a patch panel high up on the wall, he really cut the cat5 too short.

Story of my life, clean up others messes

~ K.I.S.S - Don't make it any more complex than it has to be ~

 

[dhnl]

It might be a BIX wall or similar setup and is not all that uncommon. A larger pharmacy chain here in Canada does all their stores like this. Definitely would not be my first design choice.

If the jumper wire they used is actually CAT5e/CAT6 it should work fine. Use your fluke/hp/etc test equipment to do a channel test and see what happens.

 

[dhnl]

I found a photo of one site. Not our work. The blue multi-pair cables go to the switch.

 

[dagwoodsystems]

The picture of a similar setup that dhnl provided makes it look a lot better than I imagined. Still, I'm not big on that style of installation. I'm especially uncomfortable with the use of skinned CAT5e/6 cable for cross-connect wire; a patch cable makes so much more sense. Oh yes, that's skinned cable alright. You can't find cross-connect wire that's level rated for LAN.

Superior Essex claims to make "Category 5 Cross-Connect wire" (

http://www.tessco.com/products/displayProducts.do?groupId=404&subgroupId=10&search=false&page=2),

which is a farce. Aside from the limited CAT5 rating, you'll notice that it's available in one or two pair spools. One pair CAT5 cross-connect wire? Complete bologna.

Does the setup that karmic has run up against work? I'm sure it does, but not well. If one did a rudimentary wire map test, electrical continuity would be found on the transmit and receive pair end to end. But we all know that circuit continuity is only a part of the physical layer story. Over short distances, I'm absolutely sure that I could get a network link up using ordinary lamp cord. But there's no way in the world that it would pass the entire suite of stringent level testing required for reliable high-speed networking.

 

[dhnl]

This is a CAT6 system. Belden actually makes a 4-pair jumper wire designed for this. Again, not our work or design, just something we came across on a service call after the installing company screwed up the phone switch.

When it comes time to upgrade or change the switches it will either be a lot of work to reterminate and test all the patch cables or leave one hell of a mess.

They sell it as "takes up much less space" and "the customer will have to call you to change crossconnects, generating more revenue". I usually try and make things easier for the customer. Calling a cabling service company to change jumpers does not really fit.

 

[dagwoodsystems]

The pix you just posted--while not your work or design--are still very pretty.

I was unaware that you could jumper CAT6 wire (and bundle it) in this manner. I'd still love to see how it came through on a cable certifier.

Anyway, it looks like I wasn't careful enough today and wound up learning something new. q:^Þ

 

[karmic]

Hmmm... I learned something today too.

I guess as long as everything is kept tight, it should work. It looks (tho its hard to see) that the 4 pairs are being used on the bix panels. If the jumpers are 4 pair and being sheilded, then yeah, it should work.

In this company's situation tho, the setup isn't that tight and nowhere as clean. they are utilizing 2 pairs, standard cross-connect that would be used on any bix phone panel, lots of pair separation is happening, nothing is tied together and the connections are flaky.


~ K.I.S.S - Don't make it any more complex than it has to be ~

 

[karmic]

Well, I went in today with a cable certifier but it couldn't have been a great one. I took one out on loan, Real world was the brand name.

http://www.bytebrothers.com/

On the cat6 runs, all 4 pairs were punched and the tester certified beyond cat6. I find this hard to believe since there's so much pair separation. WTF????

On the cat5 runs, only 2 pair were punched. The certifier wouldn't even look at them, says to check cable map.



~ K.I.S.S - Don't make it any more complex than it has to be ~

 

[dagwoodsystems]

You know, I'm really with you on this one karmic.

CAT6 cable typically has a plastic separator to help prevent crosstalk. That's certainly not done on the cross-connect bundle shown in the picture, though the cross-connect length is fairly short. Hmmmm. Something still doesn't quite sit right with me, despite what the tester says. But it's certainly possible that I'm completely FOS.

From what I've read, the tester has favorable reviews. There's a brief reference in the Sundance forum as well at

http://www.sundance-communications.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=000059;p=1.

Anyway, what's the scoop on the loaner thing? Did you rent this from an outfit, or did a friend give you his for the day? Calibration is important; it certainly sways things in court if you got a speeding ticket from radar.

Similarly, I see rules broken on this installation yet end-to-end it reportedly passes with flying colors. WTF indeed.

____________________________
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from Magix. --Arthur C. Clarke (imbellished).

 

[mikeydidit]

I wonder what happens when you hook up something and try to get a Gibabit connection?? Would it connect? Just thinking out loud this morning.

Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.
Thomas A. Edison

For the best response to a question, read faq690-6594

 

[karmic]

This meter is new, borrowed it from my cable supplier, they treat me well . Tested it with 150' patch cables and it seemed ok.

And yes, on the cat6 connections, windows xp links up with a gig connection with the appropriate network card. Seems stable too.

I should get a picture for you. WTF indeed. This is breaking all the rules in cabling but yet, it still works.

I take so much care when running and punching both cat5 and cat6, so this just blows me away.



~ K.I.S.S - Don't make it any more complex than it has to be ~