Newbie Users 7

[dyarwood]

I have been reading a little of the "Why do so many people not acknowledge help" thread (not all of it as its very long). I may be repeating some view of another user. I discovered Tek-Tips about 3 months ago and find it very useful. However, I do understand that some people may be just trying to learn. My thought is should there be a forum for learners? This way these questions would be kept (ideally) to this forum and learners could teach each other (IMHO the best way to test your learning is teach someone your skill). I throw open the floor to discussion.

dyarwood

 

[MakeItSo]

Reasonable proposal.
I guess most "Newbie" posts in the Access, VB and VBA fora, so actually two to three Newbie-fora for these topics should suffice. As it seems to me, that these learner's questions have become significantly more over the past few weeks.
This could also ease the learners' search for answers, since they don't have to browse through the more sophisticated posts to find a solution for their problem.

In addition, I guess Newbies can learn a lot more from each other and from us that way. Just imagine a thread posted by a Newbie and answered by two or three others: possibly 50 posts long with 100 proposals and a final "Yeehaah! Did it a complete other way!" solution

That would truly be "learning by doing".

 

[kippy13]

Hi,
A good idea however slightly impractical in my opinion.
There are a number of FAQs which contain most frequent questions and trouble shooting steps. I feel that these are not referenced or searched enough by any users-newbies or otherwise.
I myself still consider myself a newbie and gain a lot from answering other posts and reading the answers of the more learned posters-even these can sometimes take a few posts to come to a resolution.
Perhaps the forums you mention could do with some more FAQS so that threads do not become to long, these FAQS can be referenced before or during posting.
On the matter of people not acknowledging help-thats just a fact of life.


"Sometimes I do not know but I try hard"- R.F. Haughty 1923

 

[chiph]

What the site owner is looking for is a place for professionals to gather. There are as many definitions of that as there are people, but the only one that counts is site management's.

From what I can tell, they tend to remove posts where the original poster is obviously not a professional -- someone asking why we use "if" statements, or someone asking for help with their schoolwork, are the usual suspects.

The problem with segregating the "newbies" to certain forums is that it doesn't work. A person posting a question wants an answer, and naturally, thinks they'll get a better answer in a forum "where the pros are". So learners forums quickly become deserted.

The present system where people are able to red-flag posts that don't belong seems to work pretty well. Every now and again you get posts by a recruiter, or someone selling the latest in kitchen gadgets, and they get removed pretty quickly.

Chip H.


If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[Dimandja]

"My thought is should there be a forum for learners? "

Learner of what exactly?

Just because someone knows the answer to a couple of questions does not make them any more special than anyone who joined this forum today. Try learning by practicing.

A newbie to one forum may be a guru to another. And a "guru" is by no means a no-it-all on everything. Unless pedantry is considered intelligence?

Thruth be told, most "experts" became so thanks to questions by unsuspecting newbies. Get rid of newbies and there go your treasured stars and pedigree.

Dimandja

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

I agree, during over 2 years of teaching I learnt more from my students then you would imagine.

That saying of "Learn something new every day" I was always saying "Well this is my something new for today"

Many questions here, the really good ones, I don't regurgitate (spelling) the answer I think of the problem and work out an answer some times making me think "Hmmm that is an interesting problem"

Hope I've been helpful,
Wayne Francis

If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[Rhombus65]

dyarwood:

So based on your theory 2nd graders should only be taught by 2nd graders right?

As an electrician I pride myself on listening! No matter how much I think I know there always seems to be something to be learned from the "uninformed".

Just my opinion!


Jim: A+, MCP W2k, Master Electrician

"The important thing is to not stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing..."
-Albert Einstein

 

[lionelhill]

I'm not sure that the sort of learners most people find most offensive actually learn anything in this site anyway. I'm thinking of the person who says "I need this code quick. Please post examples"; they want fully written code to cut and paste. Anything less they don't even acknowledge. They'll cut and paste an awful solution if it's fully written, even if there's a much better, but not fully written solution further down the thread. What hope has someone like that? Red flag 'em, and here's hoping they fail their exams (unlikely, but one can always hope)!The world of IT doesn't need cut-and-paste merchants.

On a happier note, the genuine learner who will learn something from here usually phrases their question in such a way that they get instant enthusiastic responses from five people who find the mechanisms of OOP inheritance (or whatever) utterly fascinating and don't care who they tell about it. These learners usually try things out, post code that they've written themselves but doesn't respond the way they expected. They use their brains a bit before posting, and a bit after reading the response too. These people, learners or not, are one of the things that make tek-tips a place worth visiting. Long life to 'em!

 

[dyarwood]

I guess the feeling is that a forum for beginners is not a good idea.

I would also guess that when a newbie starts to be able to answer questions they can see that they have actually learnt things. And lets face it even experts need a little help some times.

I do feel beginners genuinely wanting to learn can get a lot from this site and the I am still getting a lot from it. Plus the warm fuzzy feeling we all get from helping people.

Thanks for all your views.

dyarwood

 

[Dimandja]

dyarwood,

I agree that there is no need for a newbie forum.

But, when you say "when a newbie starts to be able to answer questions they can see that they have actually learnt things", then I take exception: this is the arrogance I was talking about.

You mean, your purpose here is to educate ignorant newbies? And you are so high up there you need not ask any questions because you already know everything?

Whoah!

Dimandja

 

[dyarwood]

That was not what it was intented to be. I know when I was a newbie I was very pleased when I started answering questions. Apologises if I did not explain it well.

 

[Dimandja]

Ok, no offense taken.

Actually, I think the whole notion of "newbie" is what's so preposterous. Simply because a question was asked does not mean anything one way or the other, except that a question was asked.

Some people try to read too much into posts and other so called statistics (number of posts, etc...); they might as well wave a magic wand.

Dimandja

 

[dyarwood]

You make a good point. I must admit I do try to help anyone who I am able to. I do not claim to be right all the time (or any of the time it seems like sometimes) but I feel if I can throw an idea in it will get some thoughts going.

I suppose at some levels we are all Newbies as we will always come across something eventually which is new to us.

dyarwood

 

[dilettante]

The point of the site isn't to educate those new to one or more technologies. There are plenty of sites like that already.

The idea was to have a place where professional practitioners can come when they run into a thorny problem. Somewhere not overrun with all of those "well I'm just starting out at fill in the blank and I can't be bothered to look in the manual or spend my time learning this stuff, so here is my question - please write my code" posts.

Now if a Tek-Tips user needs to branch out into some new area of study, it might be reasonable to ask where to locate good references and tutorial materials. Ideally though we should be compiling FAQs listing such sources and the "newbie" should go there, look for these, and pursue them on his own. That saves on the clutter of "where can I read about..." posts too.

The closest thing to a firm policy here is the "no homework" rule. The rest of the job of keeping standards high and forums uncluttered relies on members flagging or shunning unfit posts. This is where the "recent newbie who knows a little now" becomes a problem. These people are glad to answer the most trivial question, which encourages yet another cycle.

It isn't elitism. Without some level of standards you end up with bulk and less valuable content. Something like a trade journal that will print anything, without regard to relevance or depth: its value becomes very diminished to its intended audience.

 

[Spirit]

I agree with Dimandja here, what is a Newbie (or NooB in gaming communities)?

Lets say Linus Torvalds (Inventor of some Windows based something or other [LOL]) joins TT today in timeline he's a newbie but in expertise level is he still a newbie?

OK, I've been a member of TT since July 2002, but in my own eye's I am very much a Newbie to IT with a HECK of a lot to learn (and every time I get close.... here comes a new version and back to square one!).

I see most of the posters here are Programmer types so perhaps it more annoying for you being asked really basic things. But from a support / tech point of view I remember starting out for a small company with about 120 users and some how ending up being the sole IT support. I did not know how to use the Internet to trouble shoot my problems, I had TechNet on CD but that was it.

I quickly found how to use the Net to search for issues and much later started to find online forums such as TT. I like to think that these so called "Newbie’s" are in the same boat and have found themselves in role due to people leaving as opposed to taking a job where they do not belong.

I certainly wouldn't want to be segregated from them just because I've been logging on for some time now.

Just my two pence worth,

Iain

 

[dilettante]

I'm confused Spirit, I don't think the issue is "how long one has been a Tek-Tips member" at all. So when someone who is an experienced WhapOS administrator joins Tek-Tips... no, they aren't considered a WhapOS newbie. At least not on administration issues.

The point is that this is a site for professionals. In other words, people who know what they are doing in general and have a question or issue they are having trouble with. It isn't really for people who don't know a topic well and want to learn by asking fundamental questions here, and it sure isn't supposed to be a virtual help desk or second-level help desk.

I can understand the position of somebody thrown into something over his head on the job, but I don't think Tek-Tips is here to bail them out. As I said before there are many other sites for tutorials, references, and beginner help. Tek-Tips was trying to do something a bit different.

 

[Dimandja]

I get your point dilettante. Except TT is mostly not used in the idealistic way you described.

You may not know it, but the majority of TT users are not even registered here. They are people who know how to use search engine to glean the information they need from Internet.

You surely know that that is how the majority of TTers end-up here in the first place.

So, to say that TT was created for professionals who know what they are doing (or something to that effect) is besides the point. Knowing how to use a search engine seems to be the basic requirement. Hardly anyone got here by typing TTdotCom.

In practice, everything written on TT is destined to be viewed on the net by anyone who can get to it, not only "professionals". TT does not reside on a private network.

Dimandja

 

[edfair]

Granted that answers are available on the net to anybody that can use a browser and input a coherent search string. But as far as posting questions, it was not intended that somebody that used a computer the first time today should be able to learn about computers by posting questions on the forums here.
All of us are new at something all the time. It is how we seek information that determines whether we are doing it in a professional way or demanding to be spoon fed to us. Professionals seek the information from multiple sources and use their mind to filter the multiple sources to create understanding. Those that want answers only are looking for solutions, not understanding and mostly that is unprofessional.

 

[CajunCenturion]

That's quite true Dimandja, but I think who views the site is the issue.

The issue is what we, as members of the IT professional community and of Tek-Tips, feel is appropriate content for this site, as intended by owner of site. It is my opinion that we, regardless of whether or not we agree with that policy, should use the red-flag to uphold and support that policy so as to maintain the professional integrity of site.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Spirit]

I'll play devils advocate here because I like doing that.

Any "Newbie" that has a server down, with the phone ringing constantly "How long til its up, how long til its up?" won't care for the understanding of the fix they just need the fix. This enables them to move on to the next urgent job, constantly trying to keep their head above water and never being able to get to shore.

So we should help them?

If there was a way to distinguish between the above scenario and the "unprofessional" (ever notice how they tend to be the boss?) then OK, warn them, then if they continue to post dumb questions then fine get rid of them. Until that time I think were kind of stuck.

Again, I can only speak of the Forums I participate in and cannot comment on programming threads. Now and again even the experienced can run search after search on the net and completely miss what they are looking for, post their question and feel rather silly when immediately 6 people post with links to possible solutions that you missed. If this happens do you then warn them not to post “Newbie” questions.

I think there is a very easy way to maintain the "quality" of TT members and thats introduce a subscription fee now how many would pay it I wonder?

On a personal note - drawing conclusions from heated debats on other Threads - I sincerely doubt that any TT member would not post a response just because the person appeared unprofessional or as a newbie, if they were repeat offenders perhaps Redflags would be fouth coming.

TT's can really restore ones faith human civilisation.

Iain

Spoon feeding teaches nothing but the shape of the spoon, hence sliced pizza was invented.