New IP PHone System, 30 Users, Single Location 2

[itgourmet]

Hi Everyone,

I'm a new user here.

I would like to discuss the merits of Mitel vs. Shoretel with someone who is not selling this equipment, who can give me unbiased information.

I'm from WInnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. A strong local dealer markets Mitel, and a smaller dealer just took on the SHoretel line.

I would be willing to pay for consulting from someone on this forum who can give me unbiased recommendations, including why I should choose one system over the other.

Thank you,

itgourmet

 

[kwbMitel]

I think you've answered your own question.

A strong local dealer markets Mitel
vs.
smaller dealer just took on the SHoretel line.

Support is at least as important as product(if not more so)


*******************************************************
Occam's Razor - All things being equal, the simplest solution is the right one.

 

[kwing112000]

I dont know much about either but have you considered Avaya. they have a good system in that space.

Kevin Wing
ACS- Implement IP Office
ACA- Implement IP Office
Carousel Industries

 

[Westi]

seeing that you are only considering IP phones must mean that you already have a good solid network with PoE switches in place. If not then you know that that will add a chunk of money to your installation and going cheap will mean asking for trouble.
I heard great things about the Shoretel from guys that install it but Mitel is also a solid product according to the installers. The Avaya IP Office has good qualities as well and I can only tell form that one that it is a nice scalable solution but you would need a local dealer for that to install it well. A bad install can ruin the best product and it's reputation.
Now to the other point I was trying to make, IP phones vs. digital phones.
If you have the wiring in place for regular phones then you cuold save some money by going with digital phones rather then IP phones. If you say 30 users then I doubt that you have a PRI and you most likely have analog lines which is another point for the digital sets rather then the IP because the conversion is around for a long time and you don't need extra equipment for some systems (IP Office for sure) and save on that one too.
Make a list for yourself with IP sets and the cost on one side and teh digital sets and the cost on teh other side. Then go with features you want and need and then some you want optional. IP Office (I am stuck on the one I know best) can have both IP and digital (and analog actually) sets and I guess that Mitel can do the same. Shoretel has IP sets and I think analog gateways for analog sets but don't know 100% so after all of that make a choice of product and see if you have a fairly local dealer that can provide you with a similar install to yours that they did as a reference. Don't take references of big and bulky installs they did, have one with the same size to be able to compare properly.
If you go for IP then make sure that the network gets taken care of by the company that installs the system as they should have the exertise to make it work unlike IT guys that have never had anything to do with VoIP, QoS and VLAN setups.

Joe W.

FHandw., ACS

I don't suffer from insanity
I enjoy every moment of it

 

[itgourmet]

Hi Westi,

Funny you should mention digital.

I actually own three Toshiba Strata phone systems. One is less than five years old.

I'm moving my business to a new location. As part of the sale, I asked to have the Toshiba system included with the building. It's a digital system, without the bells and whistles of IP systems, but it is solid. I've been using a similar Toshiba system at my head office, and a newer Toshiba at a location that is three years old.

I'm closing my main office and the three year old office, and amalgamating all business activities in a new larger facility. I could easily use the existing Toshiba system there, and I have plenty of phones, but the local TOshiba dealer (the dealer that is now trying to sell me Mitel) has basically dropped Toshiba, and for any minor service issues, I have to pay his company for on site service. I can't even call for minor service advice over the phone, as his company (again this is the same company that is now trying to sell me Mitel) won't provide telephone support, only on-site. Onsite service is probably industry standard, but if I simply want to move a phone from one office to another, I have to bring in his technicians and pay onsite rates.

The new location has more well defined areas, and the chances are very good that if I chose to install the existing Toshiba system (the PBX is already installed, I just need to put in new phone wiring for most of the new offices), once the system is configured, there would not need to be major changes that often. The Toshiba system does have a decent voice mail system, but all voicemail is stored in the system, with no outlook integration.

What I like about IP systems like Shoretel and Mitel, is the Outlook integration, Outlook storage of voicemail, connectivity with cell phones (twinning, etc.), and my impression is that configuring the IP system would be easier and less dependent on technicians for ongoing support.

My impression is that Shoretel comes with more "in the box" including perhaps better integration of phone features, and that Mitel requires more software to accomplish the same thing. Some telephony professionals compare Shoretel more to Cisco and Avaya, than to Mitel, and other than in Winnipeg, I haven't seen to much about Mitel. I have heard that there are some concerns about Mitel as they are in debt, but they are owned by a very wealthy man, and Shoretel appears to be a smaller company.

All in all, the choice is difficult, so I'm hoping to find professional on this site who can help me understand the pros and cons of Shoretel vs Mitel, and perhaps why I should simply stay with the Toshiba that I have.

If I chose to stay with the Toshiba system, I would save a great deal of money, even after paying for configuration of the new system, but I've always been interested in staying on top of technology, and staying with Toshiba, while it may work fine, would be staying with older technology.

Again, thanks for your post. Any other information would be appreciated.

ITGOURMET

 

[cknipe]

I would still stay with Mitel.

One thing I can tell you is that there are people using 10 and 15 year old mitel systems that are still able to take advantage of the newer telephony applications like teleworker and mobile extension.

What I'm trying to say is that most systems reach a point where the manufacturer doesnt want to put any more money into the box. Mitel's support is great and they make sure that your investment is worth its money by making most new products backwards compatible with older systems.

Another thing I like about mitel is that you only have to purchase your licenses once. there are some voip systems out there that you have to pay every year just to keep your phones working.

The only annual costs that mitel requires is thier software assurance. I think its roughly about $400/ yr. With that cost, your dealer has the ability to speak with mitel tech support and your telephone system has access to the latest verison of code.

Be sure you ask how much the solutions will cost over 5 years.

 

[intrigrant]

Avaya IP Office has the lowest ROI compared with MITEL or Shoretel.
I know all three systems and i like the IP Office most, then the Shoretel and the Mitel least.
Why?
Avaya IP Office is easy to install, maintain (even by the enduser), has a lot of features for free and you are not bound to a yearly fee for "assurance" what ever that may be.

The Shoretel is an all VoIP system with great software integration, if you need seamless integration with MS Office etcetera then go for Shoretel.

Mitel is a solid solution but they use a lot of software solutions from third parties which make it unnecessary difficult to implement and maintain, once setup properly ( may take some time ) it is a stable system you can use for years.

 

[Bas1234]

I'm with ^

___________________________________________
It works! Now if only I could remember what I did...

Dain Bramaged
___________________________________________

 

[doktor]

You can go for LG-Nortel iPECS, where you get value for money.
In Canada and the US, this product is named: Vodavi Telenium
(

http://www.vertical.com/)

http://www.vertical.com/products-telenium.html

///doktor

 

[AVAYAPro]

I highly disagree with doktor, Vodavi is garbage.

Highly agree with bas and intrigant.

 

[Bas1234]

Don't know Mitel now a days, but 6 years ago the 3300 and the 3100 realy sucked, and it still runs on a Harddisk. That will break soon or later. Putting it back to gather will cost a lot of time. An AVAYA is back online in 15 min, the old 3300 Mitel took 1 hour. Programming is webbased of the Mitel so very slow. AVAYA has an offline Manager so making backup takes 10 seconds or so, try to do a full backup on a Mitel that will take 20 min. Both are very alike but I still preffer the AVAYA IP Office. Mitel used to be a bit ahead of AVAYA like SIP extensions, VideoPhone and VPN phones. But today AVAYA can also do all that.

___________________________________________
It works! Now if only I could remember what I did...

Dain Bramaged
___________________________________________

 

[yeahbutno]

If I had the option then without doubt I would go for Mitel,but like KwbMitel said support is of vital importance. So that would more or less confirm my decision if it was between a STRONG LOCAL reseller and that of another SMALLER reseller which has only just STARTED to sell Shoretel solutions!! There wouldn't be any point in getting a system that you didn't have proper support on.

 

[cwc3]

I Think that Panasonic is a better choice than Toshiba, Avaya,Mitel,Vodavi,Nortel and I have done them all......

 

[donb01]

I use Panasonic for my "small" standalone stuff (if I have to go bigger than 30 - 40 people I use equipment compatible with my voice WAN and connect it to the main system) and have been happy with their systems for years.

I have absolutely no experience with their IP stuff though and am not aware of anyone locally that is running it.

I also know very little about Mitel, but can tell you that a regional chain of furniture stores around here ripped out all their old Siemens stuff and upgraded to a full Mitel IP system - integrated into their call centers and everything so that when a customer call comes in if they have an account it pops up on the CSR's screen. It took them almost a year to work the bugs out of everything and make it stable. Take with a grain of salt that this is a larger system and they have systems in 5 cities within a 80 mile radius of the main site, but a year is still a long time to have a stable system in my opinion. I know of this because I snapped up all their used equipment for parts after their upgrade and have had conversations with their people while researching my own upgrade options.

Siemens has a cool new system for small offices called OpenScape or something along those lines that is a pure IP system. I got a chance to play with it when I was at a little mini-tradeshow thing that some of my vendors were doing down in Milwaukee. I thought it had some pretty slick features and a lot of neat PC integration stuff. It had built-in voicemail and everything. It was too small for a company our size, but I definitely liked it. Maybe google around and look into that too. I think it was like the 3800 series or something like that, but I didn't take brochures because I wasn't planning to buy any...

 

[GSmitherman]

Here is some Mitel info:

Mitel Financial Facts - 2010

Mitel is losing market share. According to Synergy Research’s September 2009 report, Mitel’s share* in the United States has dropped from 11% in March 2009 to 6% in September 2009. (*defined as Enterprise IP Telephony, excluding hybrid systems aka “Converged Conferencing”)

Mitel is heavily in debt. Mitel has over $430 million in long?term debt and bank indebtedness, together with only $32 million in cash and investments, $40 million in annual interest expense, and only $9 million in cash flow from operations in fiscal year 2009. (Source: Mitel F?1/A dated 2/9/10 for the period ending April 30, 2009)

Mitel’s revenue is decreasing. In its most recent SEC filing on Form F?1/A, Mitel reported that its revenue has decreased 19% in the 6 months ended October 2009 when compared to the same period in 2008. (Source: Mitel F?1/A dated 2/9/10 for the six months ending October 31, 2009 and 2008)

Mitel reported a GAAP net loss of $18 million for the six months ended Oct 2009. (Source: Mitel F?1/A dated 2/9/10 for the six months ending October 31, 2009) We note that $18 million represents over half of their cash position.

Mitel is burning cash. For the quarter ended October 2009, Mitel reports they used $3.5 million dollars in operating cash flow. (Source: Mitel F?1/A dated 2/9/10 for the quarter ending October 31, 2009)

Mitel is decreasing their investments in product development. Mitel is cutting operating costs, including R&D. Mitel reported that it decreased their R&D spending by 25% in the six months ended October 2009 compared to the same period
the prior year. (Source: Mitel F?1/A dated 2/9/10 for the six months ending October 31, 2009)

Mitel has had net losses for 8 years from 2001?2009, except in 2008 when its financials were augmented by its InterTel acquisition. (Source: Mitel F?1/A dated 2/9/10 Risk Factors)

 

[kwbMitel]

@itgourmet: I hope you make up your mind soon. The Mitel bashing is getting annoying.

I stand by my original statement. Go with the company that looks to provide the best service in your area (whatever product that may be.)

As with politicians, if they spend more time bashing their opponents, do you really want them in power using your money? You might be next.

*******************************************************
Occam's Razor - All things being equal, the simplest solution is the right one.

 

[LkEErie]

Why did everbody forget to bash Nortel when they were in trouble? Or Comdial? Or GM? Or Toyota...oh wait, forget that part

All of those Mitel systems installed aren't going to stop working just because the parent company has a bad annual report. Now if the installer goes out of business, or loses interest in the porduct, that's a different story.

Buying a phone system on sizzle or promiseware doesn't make it work any better and doesn't make it work. Buying a phone system on name (read Cisco) doesn't make it a good system and paying "renewal" rates for software is retarded.

Is this off-topic enough?

LkEErie

 

[jpull]

Don't know much about the Mitel, but havent heard great things (not that it means anything). Have had some experience with the shoretel, and hear great things when it works, but I have also seen and heard horror stories. In one instance, some how (doesn't make sense to me, but I saw it with my own eyes) the shoretel system took down the entire network. Took the IT company (also the Shoretel Dealer) a few days to get it back up and running.
The IP Office is rock solid and has a lot of features.
The best bang for your buck would be to put in a Toshiba CIX, only reusing some of the DKT phones from the old system. Don't reuse the backend hardware unless it is the newer models. I am assuming you have a DK system or older. If you have BDKUs or RCOU3s, those can be reused. PDKUs and RCOU1s, no. The Toshiba wont have as many bells and whistles out of the box as the Avaya, but you can purchase them as addons. However, if you are planning on doing alot of advanced applications (Unified Messaging, ACD, Call Recording, etc) then you will get more bang for your buck with the IP Office.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[GSmitherman]

jpull...
Systems don't take networks down. I have never seen a system take a network down. I have seen people who didn't know what they were doing take systems down. I install Avaya and ShoreTel. IP Office rock solid??? Take a look at the IP Office forum and you will see all the issues. It is hardly rock solid.

 

[donb01]

I don't know, it's all semantics here, but not necessarily using a phone system as an example, I have seen "systems" "take down" networks before. Not from the standpoint of complete and utter annihilation, and maybe not with the latest and greatest networking hardware, but I have seen bad network boards exhibit something that used to be called "jabber" and spew out so much useless garbage that it slows the network to a crawl - a newer networking system may just detect and lock out that port now, but in the olden days it was quite fun to find out where it was coming from. You can also get systems with bad enough malware or virus infestations to spew out enough crap to pretty much take down a network as well.

I would still believe it is possible even with telephony to screw something up badly enough to mess up a network to the point where it is mostly unusable. That wouldn't have anything to do with the brand of hardware, it would be more likely the specific component failure, well-meaning idiot that misconfigured the system, or specific software failure (virus, malwayre, etc).