.NET and VFP

[TomasDill]

That is if the VFP community desires the CLR or Common Language Runtime. What do you think Vlad? It is so eearly any opinion is really premature but there will still be difference between VB, VC++, VFP etc?

First of all, I don't think MS will listen to VFP community much, because you always have option to use older versions of VFP without CLR, that work great ad will work great long time.
Are there will be differences?
Yes and no. Language still be VB, C# or VFP or whatever MS will add in future. But all of them will be compiled into the same kind of code and will run with the same run-time libraries. I suppose these run-time libraries will be provided by MS with next version of MS Windows, so no more mess with installing them on each client computer.
This cause some common logic for all these languages. For example, next version of VB will have full-hierarchy classes, some obsolete statements will be removed, some new things will be added that moves VB somewhat towards VFP, logically. On the other side, VFP will be changed dramatically, and this is the worst thing cause a lot of discussions last time. For example, nobody beleives CLR will be able to work with native VFP tables. Also, it is obvious, that VFP speed in working with strings, objects and arrays will be spoiled too, just because current VFP interpreter and memory model is too different than in VB or C#, and it is not compartible to existing COM+ model. Well, MS also can move C#/VB towards VFP, but nobody think that this could happen, too much work and too much changes.
However, there are good news too. The main purpose of CLR is to use it in COM+ objects together with ADO recordsets and support COM+ events with early binding. So, there is a little chanse that MS leave all VFP features and advantages, but, CLR for VFP will be used as option in the compiling - 'COM DLL with CLR code'. To compile to such code you will be restricted to use certain commands and structures, but will be able to use some new commands and structures. It seems the most obvious and simple way without much of damage for VFP, but who knows?
What Is CLR (Common Language Runtime)? It is not only common language. It is also tree-like interpreter code, that can be used by many ways:
1. Just run it using run-time libraries (like java code)
2. Compile it to the processor code of the machine where code is running.
And here are all nuts of the new technology. Your application now can work everywhere, on any OS and any processor. You just need 'plug in' to compile CLR code. Compilation of such code is quick, easy and effective because most work on the program sources parsing already done and all code is represented in tree-like form that is the most quick form for compiling/converting to any other code. This is good replacement of Java. It was discovered already so far ago (I don't know exactly, I learnet this technology ~year ago). And MS gonna use it as a challenge for Java.

Hope this helped. [sig]<p>Vlad Grynchyshyn<br><a href=mailto:vgryn@softserve.lviv.ua>vgryn@softserve.lviv.ua</a><br>[/sig]

 

[BlindPete]

Thanks Vlad!

I too have been follwing .NET very closely. It is too bad that MS decided to reinvent Java in its own image (.NET) Next year Sun will release it's JAVA VM chip sets. They will run Java class's as fast as C++. Of coarse you have to have the processor. So much insight... so little cooperation... Such a waste for both companies. [sig]<p> Pete<br><a href=mailto:blindpete@mail.com>blindpete@mail.com</a><br><a href= > </a><br>What your mother told you is true! You will go blind! (from moonshine anyway)[/sig]

 

[TomasDill]

Pete, I agre and disagree with you. CLR is better than Java when runing without Java processor, because CLR is MUCH more quick. It will be comiled to target machine processor native commands and than run. Java code just interpreted by such machine by special software (very slowly, indeed).
Well, when Java processor will be made... What the difference with usual processor? Why reinvent new processor and add it to the multitude of existing processors? IMHO installing new hardware makes more headache than installing new software.
[sig]<p>Vlad Grynchyshyn<br><a href=mailto:vgryn@softserve.lviv.ua>vgryn@softserve.lviv.ua</a><br>[/sig]

 

[BlindPete]

Don't get me wrong, I like MS for the most part. Sun's VM processor and a Linux OS will compete with wintel. As you know the advantage of the Java code is that it runs on any OS with a VM installed.

I've written mutli-platform C++ apps before. Put simply. It sucks. The hype will suggest that if you compile to the target OS your app will work. It is completely false. You are ultimately left with seperate &quot;projects&quot; for each platform. It is a huge pain. If your targeting MS platforms only than it doesn't matter (Since 98% of the PC market is MS that is a fair assumption). However Linux is growing in popularity on the server side and that trend shold not be ignored. There is also no disputing that Java Application lacks performance when relying on VM software. As a front end however... it does the job. The COM layer would still be machine specifc... but at least you only have to write the GUI once. (this is what I have been doing a lot of lately)

As far as hardware, servers and the internet... I don't think the VM chipset is targeted for desktops, but rather for servers and hand held devices.

I can't say that I like Java. It is a pain, much the same way as C++. I'm just getting sick of having to learn a new language every couple of years.
In the end what ever the language IMHO it's just syntax. I already know how to program ;-) [sig]<p> Pete<br><a href=mailto:blindpete@mail.com>blindpete@mail.com</a><br><a href= > </a><br>What your mother told you is true! You will go blind! (from moonshine anyway)[/sig]

 

[TomasDill]

The hype will suggest that if you compile to the target OS your app will work. It is completely false.

For C++ - I agree. Bt think, you will have more high-level languages (VB, C# and VFP) than C++. So all functionality based on the UI and Windows API calls could be recompiled to similar function calls in other OS. That is not true for low-level languages, but possible for higher level languages. Looks like MS want to make this... [sig]<p>Vlad Grynchyshyn<br><a href=mailto:vgryn@softserve.lviv.ua>vgryn@softserve.lviv.ua</a><br>[/sig]

 

[JDurbin]

In a VB keynote the new CEO talked about programming even literally a coffee maker from your computer with VB code. Did you hear that keynote? I failed to realize at that time it was CLR though, I only watched a few minutes of it.

It's interesting. I like this thread. Pete if you know Java I guess you know they are hiring contractors at over US$120 per hour. Insane! Not god level developers aka Levy, Black, Strahl, Egger et al just you and me folk with a couple or 3 years experience in Java. Wow. I was thinking of learning it next. Or finish out the MCSD track with VFP Distributed, SQL and something else but man, $125/hr? That's hard to turn away from. You must really have a dislike for Java to turn down those kinda of beans (Heh, I like that *pat, *pat <g>)

I was also considering learning VB beyond an acquaninance level. I don't _need_ any knowledge now outside learning SQL and Oracle interface this would be just for my learning and for future direction. VB shouldn't be too difficult to pick up, tons of work out there for that AND both VFP and VB skills needed. What do you guys think? You just happy with VFP skills or rather VFP / SQL work? Do you just learn skills as needed or do you proact like I want to do here to have the experience to qualify for projects? [sig]<p>John Durbin<br><a href=mailto: john@johndurbin.com> john@johndurbin.com</a><br>MCP Visual FoxPro<br>
ICQ VFP ActiveList #73897253[/sig]

 

[TomasDill]

John, nice question!
Personally, I finished successful projects using Delphi, VB, SQL Server/ASP, West Wind tools, and even Assembler for 80x86 processors under DOS. Now I learning Crystal Reports, XML/COM+/SOAP and OLAP cubes. What is most popular, new, and _effective, I think is worth to know about even when you will not have projects. (I will have soon).
Some words about Java
I think they are hiring contractors at over US$120 per hour just because complexity of qualified programming on Java. There are no much of good programmers in that area. Complexity makes development using Java quite expensive compare to other tools.

[sig]<p>Vlad Grynchyshyn<br><a href=mailto:vgryn@softserve.lviv.ua>vgryn@softserve.lviv.ua</a><br><a href=

http://www.softserve.lviv.ua>Soft

Serve</a><br>The professional level of programmer could be determined by level of stupidity of his/her bugs[/sig]

 

[JDurbin]

So what do you think is most beneificial in the next few years? Java? VB? I don't see the payment structures changing too much over the next few years except that perhaps the Java &quot;fire&quot; will have cooled and it's rate but still should tower over VB rates. If it's the most contracting $/hr I'm after I don't see anything better than Java. I know there are other things to work than the $ but I'm just qualifying it to pay here for arguments sake. If as I learn it I hate it, I'll go to something I do like [sig]<p>John Durbin<br><a href=mailto: john@johndurbin.com> john@johndurbin.com</a><br>MCP Visual FoxPro<br>
ICQ VFP ActiveList #73897253[/sig]

 

[foxdev]

Its easy to find anecdotal examples of outrageous pay rates for many skill sets. If I pay the kid across the street $30 to mow my yard, and it takes him 20 minutes to do it, he's making $90/hour. Obviously this is an extreme example, but sometimes so are the high-dollar examples we run across. I've been offered $150+/hour to do VFP programming; but it was only for a week. My point is that you can certainly find astronomical rates that companies are willing to pay - but seldom for any great length of time.

If you look at the salary surveys such as this one:

http://www.datamasters.com/dm/survey.html

or this one:

http://www.mcpmag.com/members/99jul/fea1main.asp

you see that most people are solidly in the $50-$75K range.

If you are competent in SAP or PeopleSoft, you are often over $100/hour...but who wants to do that? Not many, apparently.

The missus is planning on pursuing a certification, and she is essentially &quot;out of the box&quot; (no experience). The concensus is that an OCP (Oracle) DBA certification is the best place to start (&quot;best&quot; meaning best combination of training needed, cost, employability at the junior level, demand, and opportunity for growth).

One regional manager of a large placement firm with whom I've worked on and off for several years has told me that, to the best of his knowledge, he has only met one MCSD, and that there are so few of them (comparatively) that they should be in high demand (depending on the MCSD's focus, of course). MCSE's, by contrast, are plentiful.

I don't learn Java because of two reasons: 1) I'm not that bright; and 2) I'm not personally convinced that it will still be the hot ticket two years from now. Therefore, I've developed MS SQL Server skills and certification, because I enjoy database work, and because there are tons of DBA and DBD positions out there.

I would be willing to participate in an informal salary survey, if youse would think it would be helpful. But it might be better for those interested in learning a new technology to go to Monster or Dice (this is not an endorsement of those products) and search for the target skill in your area and see what pay is being offered, and the quantity of those kinds of positions. That should be somewhat realistic. [sig]<p>Robert Bradley<br><a href=mailto: > </a><br><a href=

http://www.foxdev.com/>FoxDev

- Visual FoxPro Development</a><br> [/sig]

 

[JDurbin]

Robert you anwered my question. Not as you think though. I asked for 3 years and you said Java rates for 2 years. Maybe you mean max 2 years or less. I think you are wrong, there are many areas where developers make 100k or more depending on exp and more importantly ability and work ethics, etc.
I would be very happy to make $125/hr over the next 2 years. Even if Java went cold (just love those play on words with Java <s>) I can always come back to VFP if not utilize both anyways. I know you did mention SQL Server but who knows where VFP will be in the future. FWIW, If you're looking purely long range then you may be in some other front end GUI than VFP as part of MCSD. Am I wrong saying Java is more implanted than VFP? I dunno. I'm checking it out. It's only people like us that keep VFP going. I believe M$ will keep it alive as long as we want buy it but it's still volitile. But I'm getting off track here.
What I'm saying is what's wrong with $125/hr over as you say a &quot;2 year&quot; period? That is no comparison to and $/hr over 1 week. You seem negative toward Java. You're definately &quot;bright enough&quot; just have an obvious distaste for it. 2 years is a substantial time period and 1/2 million dollars income! at 40/hrs per week! [sig]<p>John Durbin<br><a href=mailto: john@johndurbin.com> john@johndurbin.com</a><br>MCP Visual FoxPro<br>
ICQ VFP ActiveList #73897253[/sig]

 

[BlindPete]

Hmmm Java... Just poured my first cup for the day!

Truthfully, If you are already OOPing with VFP the transition to Java is not as hard as you might think. As for salaries, I know people that make obscene salaries (not me :-(), but I don't think it will last forever. Increasingly I find computer development work is falling into the realm of the specialized consultant(s). Salaried programmers are increasingly delegated to maintance and update roles. I work in VA near DC, and perhaps my experience here is not typical.

I am by no means an expert with Java (12 months exp). The language is completely OOP. Inheritance is essental to making good use of Java. Error management is goofey at best. And Debuging, roll up your sleves, put on pot of coffee and be prepared for a long puzzle to decifer. I would say the most significant difference between VFP and Java is the level of OOP. In Java everyhting is an object, object property, object method or object event. Try to envision writing a VFP app where each program begins with DEFINE CLASS. I must admit learning Java has improved my skills with VFP, C++ and VB.

If you want to learn Java. I highly recommend downloading Sun's Java tutorial and documentation. I wasted $200 on reference material I now never use. Learn from my experience. You can set yourself up a nice little Java development kit for under $30.

Java2 SDK (free)

http://www.sun.com/download/;$sessionid$JYEGPVQAAAV1RAMTA1FU45Q

Java Tutorial (free) & Documentation

http://java.sun.com/docs/?frontpage-javaplatform

Strongly Recommended Editor (free trial - $29)

http://www.textpad.com/download/index.html

Enjoy!
[sig]<p> Pete<br><a href=mailto:blindpete@mail.com>blindpete@mail.com</a><br><a href= > </a><br>What your mother told you is true! You will go blind! (from moonshine anyway)[/sig]

 

[foxdev]

What I'm saying is what's wrong with $125/hr over as you say a &quot;2 year&quot; period?

Absolutely nothing, John; heck, I'd spend the next two years doing dBase II at $125 an hour!

But I think you misread me (or, more likely, I wasn't clear). I was saying that there are very, very few actual, available positions where someone will pay you personally (not your employer) $125 an hour for 2000 hours straight...regardless of the language (Java, C++, etc.).

The core of my long-winded post was this: there just aren't that many $100+/hour, long-term positions out there, so don't go learn a new skill simply because you heard that's where the big bugs are.

Frankly, we can get some good rates for VFP development precisely because VFP is not the hottest thing going right now. There are so few VFP developers with solid 2+ years experience that we can get some pretty good rates.

But I wouldn't advise someone to learn VFP in order to make more money, because I'm not confident how much in demand it will be in &quot;X&quot; years. I feel the same about Java: I'm not down on it by any means; I'm just not personally convinced its demand level will be as high in 2 or 3 years as it is now.

Skill demands come and go, like AI and Turbo Pascal, which were huge rages at one time. Others show promise, but never really take off and become leading technologies - things like Delphi, Python, and PHP - they're great products and they are (IMHO) superior to most of the more common alternatives, but from a strictly financial/career point of view, there just aren't that many jobs for them, compared to VB or C++ or Oracle.

Again, just so that I'm not ambiguous: I'm not saying Java will fade away; I have absolutely no basis of belief either way. I'm just saying that, for me personally, I'm not willing to invest the months and Advil needed to learn it well because I'm not reasonably sure my investment will pay off.

I would be willing to wager that Oracle and MS SQL Server and DB2 will be with us for quite a while, though. [sig]<p>Robert Bradley<br><a href=mailto: > </a><br><a href=

http://www.foxdev.com/>FoxDev

- Visual FoxPro Development</a><br> [/sig]

 

[BlindPete]

I fear that if VFP goes the CLR route, then it may just roll over and die soon after. Once in CLR (as I understand - I'm sure Vlad will correct me ) Once in CLR why do you need VFP at all. VB and C# will have similar or equal performance to VFP. All the VFP functionality/utility we love may get rolled into the CLR class system and then you could use any .NET language to get at it.

I also agree with Robert. Java will never be the end all product. You can not discount the power of the MS marketing machine when .NET is ultimately rolled out no matter how good or bad it is. Sun is attempting to postion Java into a more competive position. And Sun has the advantage of a 4 year head start plus pleanty of Anti-MS sentiment in the market. They may succeed, they may not. Either way VB, VBA and C will remain marketable skills.

Personally I delight in using MS Visual compilers. They are... for lack of better word complete. VFP's is strictly bare bones IMO.

As for the 100+/hr jobs... go out and try and get one. It is not worth it IMHO. Lots of stress, lots of expectation, no consideration and no long term commitment.

Incidentally I'm not some ball buster who lives eats breaths code. I only learned Java out of need. My boss underbid some work, we couldn't afford to out source the Java portion... so we did it ourselves. My OT is apparently free [sigh]. But now that I know it, I keep finding uses for it... just like anything else.

[sig]<p> Pete<br><a href=mailto:blindpete@mail.com>blindpete@mail.com</a><br><a href= > </a><br>What your mother told you is true! You will go blind! (from moonshine anyway)[/sig]

 

[JDurbin]

Thanks for the tips Pete. And Robert again what is wrong with 2 years at 125/hr? That's not worth it I guess you are saying. Well when I get offered or find something in that ballpark with VFP I wouldn't take a moderate increase with Java. Perhaps you have already found something like that but I have not. Frankly I wouldn't care if Java folded after 2 years. 1/2 million dollars if there is truly 2 yrs of work out there which I believe there is and will be from what I know now (as I said I'm gathering facts) is good enough for me. I've done things cause I enjoyed them for 20 years. I wanna make serious jack for a year ot 2. That's what _I_ want to do. Maybe I'm underestimateing the MCSD track and what it will provide in terms of opportunity over the next couple years. By all means if anyone know of a VFP job paying even $75/hr PLMK! I can live with that! [sig]<p>John Durbin<br><a href=mailto: john@johndurbin.com> john@johndurbin.com</a><br>MCP Visual FoxPro<br>
ICQ VFP ActiveList #73897253[/sig]

 

[TomasDill]

Pete, noone knows what will be with VFP. Its depended on how much of good features of VFP ('good' compare to VB) will be spoiled by moving VFP to CLR, ot how much of these features will be used in CLR. [sig]<p>Vlad Grynchyshyn<br><a href=mailto:vgryn@softserve.lviv.ua>vgryn@softserve.lviv.ua</a><br><a href=

http://www.softserve.lviv.ua>Soft

Serve</a><br>The professional level of programmer could be determined by level of stupidity of his/her bugs[/sig]

 

[foxdev]

Aaarrgghhhh, John!

You wrote:
What I'm saying is what's wrong with $125/hr over as you say a &quot;2 year&quot; period?

I replied:
Absolutely nothing, John; heck, I'd spend the next two years doing dBase II at $125 an hour!

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH WORKING AT ANY LEGAL AND ETHICAL JOB FOR $125/HOUR, including Java programming. Where have I said anything different?

[sig]<p>Robert Bradley<br><a href=mailto: > </a><br><a href=

http://www.foxdev.com/>FoxDev

- Visual FoxPro Development</a><br> [/sig]

 

[JDurbin]

Robert am I pushing the right buttons? <g> Sorry, my frustration.

Frankly, we can get some good rates for VFP development precisely because VFP is not the hottest thing going right now. There are so few VFP developers with solid 2+ years experience that we can get some pretty good rates.
What do you mean by &quot;good rates&quot; with VFP? Over what span? Also I'm talking 125/hr for Java (sorry not trying to hit the buttons) in St Louis. Not NY where coffee is $5 bucks a refill. So a VFP job there should pay twice as much or so according to Cost Of Living. I'm really curious. REally serious and yes frustrated. I studied my ass off learning VFP and now I have headhunters calling me saying if I knew Java I'd start that day at .. well you get the picture. [sig]<p>John Durbin<br><a href=mailto: john@johndurbin.com> john@johndurbin.com</a><br>MCP Visual FoxPro<br>
ICQ VFP ActiveList #73897253[/sig]

 

[TomasDill]

John, you might propose them Java applications that work with VFP dtabase at backend [sig]<p>Vlad Grynchyshyn<br><a href=mailto:vgryn@softserve.lviv.ua>vgryn@softserve.lviv.ua</a><br><a href=

http://www.softserve.lviv.ua>Soft

Serve</a><br>The professional level of programmer could be determined by level of stupidity of his/her bugs[/sig]

 

[JDurbin]

I think JODBC or whatever it's called is big. And the headhunters are mainly placing people at companies like AGEdwards and the like where Java is used in Internet apps [sig]<p>John Durbin<br><a href=mailto: john@johndurbin.com> john@johndurbin.com</a><br>MCP Visual FoxPro<br>
ICQ VFP ActiveList #73897253[/sig]

 

[foxdev]

I wish I knew Java right now. But I do know SQL Server, and that is from where my particular income growth will likely come. I'm pretty much topped out on VFP, though I'd love to continue working with the product.

I encourage everyone interested to go to one or two of the on-line job sites and search for real jobs in your area (or an area to which you are willing to move), and see what the rates are. I've not looked in the past few months, but if you say there are multiple (i.e., not a single aberration) long-term (3+ months) contracts for Java at $125/hour, then I agree that Java sure sounds enticing, especially if you already know it.

The most I've ever been billed at on a long-term, 40-hours per week contract for VFP is $85/hour. I've had several other long-terms where I've received in the $60s per hour. The most I've ever been offered as a regular, full-time, full benefits employee for VFP is $90K. These are all contracts and positions from around the country, not just one city.

Therefore, from my limited experience, I'd say the most you could reasonably expect from a long-term VFP contract is probably about $70/hour; if you're going through a 3rd party company, you'll get about $50 to $60 of that. As I've mentioned, you could expect short-term offers for VFP or FP development from desparate clients that will top $100/hour, but they are typically for less than two weeks.

I rely quizzing the recruiters I know personally to get a feel for what is in demand, and what is paying the most. Java, C++ and Oracle (especially a Master certified OCP) are up there at the top in terms of compensation and demand. MS SQL Server is somewhat below those, but still ahead of VFP in both demand and compensation - generally speaking.

And John - I know you're just trying to get back at me ;-)
You're better off in St. Louis though - now that its football season. [sig]<p>Robert Bradley<br><a href=mailto: > </a><br><a href=

http://www.foxdev.com/>FoxDev

- Visual FoxPro Development</a><br> [/sig]