National differences in eloquence

[petermeachem]

The English seem to me to be poor at expressing themselves, and poor at speaking to groups. Americans seem much better. Is this because Americans are taught to speak at school. There appears to be more effort now in English schools to get the children to speak, so perhaps we will catch up.
On the other hand, is it just a national characteristic. We were down in Portugal last week and our neighbour said 'come round to talk'. In England that would be 'come round for coffee' or 'come round for a drink'.

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http://www.ourhouseinportugal.co.uk/

 

[kcongdon]

My publicly funded high school in Indiana (central U.S.) required all students to pass a public speaking course to graduate. It was a pretty hard course for some students to pass. A lot of colleges and universities in the U.S. require public speaking courses too.

I'm not sure that Americans express themselves better than the English do. We just speak more freely and without regard to consequences. Freedom of speech is part of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, so we do place a fairly high value on freedom of expression. The mainland U.S. is buffered by oceans and large countries on all sides, so we may have felt (not so after 9-11) a sense of security too.

Maybe required public speaking courses are a last effort to rein in unfocused American chattiness.

 

[KenCunningham]

Erm.

 

[Crowley16]

yeah, my feelings exactly Ken...

 

[GlenJohnson]

Erm.

?

Glen A. Johnson
If you're from Northern Illinois/Southern Wisconsin feel free to join the Tek-Tips in Chicago, Illinois Forum.

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[strongm]

It's a subtle joke...

 

[KenCunningham]

I'm pleased a couple got the message.

I guess it all depends upon what we define as eloquence. If we are meaning effective, unambiguous, 'plain speaking' then I would have to disagree that we British are any worse than Americans at it. If, on the other hand, we are talking about the use of words in a way designed to show off (supposed) lexical skills, then we have some way to go to catch up. The mangling of the language in this manner seems to be a favourite of the military, serving (and probably seeking) to hide the real meaning behind such terms as collateral damage, otherwise known as people caught up in something they cannot control or influence. It's strange how in this manner the newspeak of George Orwell seems to have come to pass - see

http://www.scn.org/news/newspeak/

for more examples.

Sorry for the rant, but it seems to me the people who give us the wit and wisdom of Ronald Reagan and George Bush are hardly qualified to then clobber us with the assertion that they are in some way superior in this respect. Pax.

 

[Crowley16]

talking of american presidents...

Ich Bin Ein Berliner...

 

[KenCunningham]

OK, but hold the mustard please!

 

[flapeyre]

Yes, please hold the mustard on my jelly doughnut (which is what "ein Berliner" means).

De mortuis nihil nisi bonum.

 

[Crowley16]

hmm, doughnut and mustard, well, can't say I remember every trying this combination...

 

[lespaul]

As a European in disguise (don't say anything, that's almost enough to get me hauled in under the unPatriot Act), I still have to take slight offense at KenCunningham's belief that all Americans support what our government is doing. In fact, daily the government's support level falls.

Plus petermeachem is English!

As far as kcongdon's comments, even though public speaking is required in many places, that doesn't mean all the people who take the course become good public speakers. Being able to speak in public is a talent and is something that must be practiced in order to become proficient. Most people only have to speak in public occassionally in thier life and therefore don't do it well. As far as the assertion

We just speak more freely and without regard to consequences

I wouldn't take that as a positive characteristic. As a traveler to Europe several times, I have seen the classic American tourist: obnoxious, loud, over bearing. I have had to overcome obvious prejudice being an American in foreign countries. I have been embarrassed by my fellow countrymen's behavior.

Unfortunately, most of the people who can afford to travel are the loud, obnoxious, overbearing people and that's how most Europeans view ALL Americans. And our reputation and world identity is rapidly becoming tarnished by the relevations of our recent actions abroad.

I apologize if this has strayed off topic.

Leslie

 

[TheRambler]

May I butt in here?

I am not an expert, but I guess "the mangling of meaning of words" is what others call "euphemism".

Anyway, what I find astonishing is the phrase:
"we do place a fairly high value on freedom of expression."
Obviously, you have not been red flagged before.

Regarding eloquence, seems to me the keyword is "persuasive", as Hitler's discourse was. I don't understand german, but I have seen and read about his speeches. Maybe a better example would be the discourse of Churchill, Luther King or Kennedy.

I would agree americans seem more "loquacious", though.

 

[AnotherHiggins]

talking of american presidents...

Ich Bin Ein Berliner...

and

Yes, please hold the mustard on my jelly doughnut (which is what "ein Berliner" means).

Actually, check out this link, and this one too. It seems that the much-publicized gaff was all hype.

From the first link:

Experts say Kennedy's German grammar was flawless when he uttered those words near the Berlin Wall on June 26, 1963.

I gotta point out, flapeyre, I find it especially ironic that your tag line is "De mortuis nihil nisi bonum," Say nothing but good about the dead - Chilon. ;-)

That having been said, I agree with lespaul...I, too, have traveled in Europe and was very embarrassed by the behavior of other Americans. As an example: contrary to American stereotypes, I found Parisians to be very pleasant. But perhaps that has something to do with the fact that I tried to be respectful and used what little French I could muster whenever I could (I used the phrase, "pardonnez-moi, je parle seulement un peu français," quite a bit). Most Americans I witnessed acted indignant that natives didn't speak English fluently.

John

 

[KenCunningham]

Oh dear. First of all let me apologise for my misunderstanding of the berliner thing - clearly I meant hamburger.

That said, please don't read the rant above as any offence to Americans in general, lespaul (and yes, I did realise that petermeachem is English). It certainly wasn't meant as such and I do appreciate that there are many many people both here and in America against the excesses perpetrated against civilians in conflicts including (but not exclusively) that in Iraq. The use of emotive words by those in power to sway opinion is at best disingenuous and at worst downright dishonest. Weapons of Mass Destruction anyone?

TheRambler - butt in where you wish by all means! I would argue that Hitler's oratory was hypnotic (hence the need for rallies) rather than persuasive, and that the mass hysteria with which it was acted upon has more than a little to do with the Allies subjugation of Germany after WWI. Churchill, Martin Luther King and Kennedy were at least (as far as we're led to believe) on the side of the angels, and as such deserve our respect far more than the rantings of civil servants acting out their masters' fantasies in verbiage.

 

[lespaul]

John,

I also speak some french and about 5 years ago as I was walking through Old Town in Albuquerque (a tourist area with indian art and tourist shops) I walked passed a couple of women speaking French. I turned around and went back and offered my feeble attempt and was told that in the 20 years they had been traveling the US, that was the first time ANY AMERICAN had spoken to them in their native language.

I personally think Europeans have the edge since most of them are bi-lingual AT THE LEAST, some speak 3 or 4 languages! And I don't blame most Europeans for not responding in English to the obnoxious ones. But I would hope that if I have made the effort to attempt to communicate in YOUR language and it's obvious that we would be better served by communicating in English that we should.

Leslie

 

[MakeItSo]

When it comes to expressing oneself, I find it striking that most native speakers seldom are eloquent - or at least seldom make use of their potential eloquence, no matter in which language, unless they write something (not talking 'bout emails...).
I guess this is so because they don't contemplate every single word - as a non-native speaker necessarily would.

Perhaps that is why Americans often seem more eloquent and sometimes are - because either they actually are non-native to English or they often deal with non-natives and must thus make themselves understood.

Besides that: it often depends on what you think is eloquent and when and where you judge it.
When I compare anything I wrote to what I would have said talking freely, I must admit that I am far from eloquent most of the time...

Cheerio,
Andy