Microsoft Webmatrix vs. JSP 1

[paron]

Has anyone tried MS Web Matrix? It's free, and I'll tell you: I was finished with my first Webservice provider and consumer in less time than I spent fiddling the command line so I could run "Hello World" in JSP.

I am the lone programmer at my agency -- and I am the DBA as well. I cannot afford the time to do command line stuff, that was obsolete in the last century! Nor can I afford to do line-by-line coding to provide commonplace functionality.

I would like to stay out of the MS world, but is there any equivalent to Web Matrix in Java? What is the least programmer-hour, Open Source way to develop browser apps with Database backends?

Ron

 

[iSeriesCodePoet]

How do you develop your JSPs? We use Forte (Or JavaOne) here and it works great. You can run and debug and it even has a built in Tomcat server for testing. iSeriesCodePoet
IBM iSeries (AS/400) Programmer

 

[paron]

Well, that's what I am trying to decide, really. I am looking for a Java way to work that is as fast and slick as Web Matrix.

Thanks for the Forte recommendation - I looked at it once, and it looked like a very good way to do hand-coding, but I really don't want to do hand-coding. I want big chunks of other people's code that I can plunk down graphically and get an app running quickly. Then tweak if I absolutely have to.

Have you evaluated Web Matrix at all? That's what I want; or as close as I can get in Open Source.

 

[iSeriesCodePoet]

NetBeans is another editor.

I don't normally suggest drag-and-drop code because what expirience are you getting by doing that? You are then just a drone doing what you know works. iSeriesCodePoet
IBM iSeries (AS/400) Programmer

 

[paron]

Mmmm, NetBeans is a little closer to what I see in Web Matrix, but only a little.

Web Matrix is a big ol' crutch -- but it seems like it can make me look good. Timeliness is essential.

Programming elegance (even maintainability) is way secondary. I am the only programmer here, so I am the only person who might appreciate programming elegance.
Everyone else just looks for timeliness and a well-designed GUI (I am the GUI designer, too.)

If the first few apps are done drone-fashion, so be it! I'll have to get my experience by sneaking "real" programming in on an as-needed basis.

So, I am looking for an Open Source, or at least non-MS, tool that can get close to the Gee-Whizness of that Web Matrix tool!

ROn

 

[iSeriesCodePoet]

From what I know, without purchasing expensive software there is no tool like that for JSPs. Most design is done in the JSP/servlet ring and I would think a bit complicated for a person to create that would do that. Depending on your knowledge and how compliated the applications are, you can still punch out programs pretty fast.

PHP is also an option, but there again, no real editors from what I know of. iSeriesCodePoet
IBM iSeries (AS/400) Programmer

 

[paron]

Thank you. I appreciate the time you've taken, and sharing your expertise. Now I can make an informed decision, imperfect though it be.

Ron

 

[sem]

You may also try Borland JBuilder (or Oracle JDeveloper, if you work with Oracle database mainly). Regards, Dima

 

[Tarwn]

A comment on "programming elegance"

Programming elegance is generally used to mean
1) Commented code that can be easily edited
2) Well written, efficient code
3) Variable naming techniques and logic that is easy to follow

By using a drag and drop method (or the cookie cutter method which is what I call it) you run the risk of adding in a lot of unnecessary code, which slows down your application. You also learn IDE specific ways of manipulating the "code" so that it works better or interacts with other portions better, which actually have no bearing what so ever on the actual language. You lose the ability to easily edit and tweak your code.

As an example, between knowing VB6 and Java I was able to pick up the concepts for ASP .Net in VB.Net in about a week. It is much faster than ASP. The entire reason I didn't switch was because it is entirely cookie cutter inthat it does a lot of javascript and such for you behind the scenes. As ASP is probably my best web language I felt insulted that the IDE thought it could write the code better than I could and I have not used it since. DreamWeaver MX is supposed to be one of the better ASP IDE's for writing all the code for you. I have proven time and again that people using that interface actually take longer to finish a project once they hit an error because they don't really know ASP, they know Dreamweaver, an application.

As you can see, I am quite heavily against IDE's. Java was the only language (not counting VB6, but thats a crappy language anyway) that I started with an IDE (Borland 4 or 5 I think) and I never used the drag and drop, only the code writing aspects. Drag and drop teaches you nothing, produces code without skill, and when some employer challenges your "knowledge" of a language you might be able to trick them by dragging and dropping, but if you sit down and open notebook and write something complicated they will be extremely impressed.

-Tarwn ________________________________________________________________________________
Sometimes it is how you ask the question: faq333-2924
Many ASP questions have already been answered, please check faq333-3048 and use the search tool before posting

 

[paron]

Tarwn: Thanks for taking the time to compose such an eloquent rationale for the "basics-up" approach to learning an application-writing technique. You obviously feel quite strongly on the subject, and you present powerful, sometimes quite irrefutable, arguments explaining your position.

I confess that, in my anxiety to keep the discussion on my track, I oversimplified my responses. I really did need to know whether there were any tools that could accelerate java-based app writing in a way analogous to that of Web Matrix in the Asp.Net world. Trust me, I needed to know that.

Now, as to the wisdom of employing such tools (if they were available: they're not,) I am perfectly ready to admit the validity of the arguments that you and iSeriesCodePoet present. What I eventually will do, I am not sure.

I am currently taking Advanced Database Management at the Master's level, and I will be using line-by-line java for my coursework. My agency seems to be headed toward the use of Novell exteNd portal/integration services (formerly SilverStream.) ExteNd is J2EE compliant, and offers a lot of drag-and-drop OOB, with java for customization -- somewhat analogous to VBA in the MS Office suite. I do use Dreamweaver, but for ColdFusion, not ASP.

It is axiomatic that this is a profession in which success is at least as dependent on one's ability to assimilate rapid change as it is on one's knowledge (no matter how great) of any current technology. The best techniques for assimilating change seem to vary wildly between individuals, and the success of their results seem to vary wildly between organizations. Someday it will all get to be too much and I'll start making sandals out of discarded tires and selling them door to door.

Thanks again, all, for your considered responses!

Ron