Maintaining an 'air-gap' with subordinates 4

[stackdump]

Hi all,

I hope someone can help me out with something...

I had a discussion today with a subordinate who has recently started managing people for the first time. Things are going ok, but some problems are surfacing.

In discussing these problems with him, I think one of his problems is that he gets 'too close' to his subordinates. By that, I mean that he turns subordinates into his 'buddies'.

Now... I am all for employees enjoying their day and having some social fun, but... I am also of the opinion that to be a successful manager, the manager needs to put a bit of distance between themselves and their employees. One day he might need to let one or more of his team go, he might need to push his team to deliver something to a very tight deadline, or make a significant increase in productivity etc. So my main reason being that subordinates need to take their bosses seriously, or put another way, managers need to command some respect.

In looking though every management book I have, I cannot find one single reference to the 'correct' relationship a manager should have with their subordinates. I would like to find something that recommends that managers do not get too close to subordinates, but I am also open to the possibility that my opinion on this matter may be wrong.

Can anyone give me any pointers? A particular book or web page perhaps?

 

[audiopro]

A good manager is a combination of all the things you describe, he or she has earned the respect of the team, can make decisions and explain the reason for that decision, can discipline individuals when necessary and can provide a sympathetic ear when an individual needs a shoulder to cry on.

In the past, managers worked their way up from tea boy to boss, these days manager types go to college/unversity, get some pieces of paper saying they are qualified and then are given a team of people to manage. They are usually very good at their main job but the role of boss is a separate skill. People skills can only be learned from experience of life and from knowledge passed from thier mentors.

Keith

http://www.studiosoft.co.uk

 

[dyarwood]

There was something about manager on the register and the comments on there were very good. I have worked for a boss who was a friend and I have worked for one who puts that distance between his staff. Now one of these managers I would not be too keen on doing any real overtime, another one I would have done as much overtime as was required. I will let you figure out which ones were which.

Plenty of the comments on the register article was that its not about being a manager its about being a leader!

 

[audiopro]

The type of people in the team also has a bearing, some people just get on with their job and keep smiling while others look to get away with doing as little as possible.

Keith

http://www.studiosoft.co.uk

 

[Welshbird]

I've always made it a point to be very good friends with my bosses. But it only works because I'm quite happy to switch from employee mode to friend mode and back again.

So, I would say I depends very much on the team. If they have a good enough concept of rank then it works very well.

Fee

The question should be [red]Is it worth trying to do?[/red] not [blue] Can it be done?[/blue]

 

[Bandenjamin]

I agree with Fee. There can never be a hard and fast rule for what the relationship is supposed to be. I have been on both sides of the mangement fence. You just have to separate the two and know when each is supposed to come in to play. Believe me when someone is pushing for a tight deadline to be met...my buddy has a much better chance of getting results then my boss.... The mentality that the boss who puts distance in the relationship can get more work out of people is just flat out wrong. It reeks of ruiling by fear. I'm positive that most people would give far more effort to someone who they feel a human connection with...


Just my two cents

--Dan
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
Mark Twain

 

[LNBruno]

I find this indispensable:

Management in the Real World


< M!ke >
[small]Holidays cause stress. Crazy people crack under stress. Consider yourself warned.[/small]

 

[stackdump]

Thanks for the comments.

You are all correct that it very much depends on the people involved, there are so many combinations and examples of good/bad relationships.

The particular person (I'll call him John), is in a situation where he gets laughed at if he asks his subordinates for something quickly. If he holds a meeting, most of his team spend their time cracking jokes and giggling at him when he tries to be serious. The 'respect' does not exist.

I would still say it is because those people are his drinking buddies, they know him too well and they have no sense of fear about making mistakes or failing to deliver. So I would actually disagree with the notion that people will work hard because their boss is their buddy. I would agree that people will work hard for a boss who is fair, who is honest, that respects them, rewards them and who provides constructive criticism.

Just to add that John has some experience of running a team but not having direct reports. He did not know anyone in his team when we moved him into the position. So somewhere along the line, he has made an error with his manager/subordinate relationships. Becoming 'too close' is the best explanation I can think of.

Can he recover this situation?

I did find this brief article

http://www.thestreet.com/newsanalysis/tips-small-business/10379209.html

 

[SQLSister]

He is going to have to smackdown people when they laugh at being asked to do something now or if they fail to deliver. Part of being the boss is being the bad guy. Once he has done it a few times, they will stop behaving badly for him. Bossing is like parenting, you have to be the one in charge and it must be clear to all that is so. It isn't so much his problem is being friendly as it is setting limits. My boss is my personal friend and yet I would never laugh when he suggests that something is urgent or refuse to do it because I didn't feel like it and if I did he would rightly smack me down. That wouldn't affect our friendship because we have personal and professional boundaries.

It is of course harder to set these boundaries once you have let them mingle. But consistently behaving as the boss and taking your role to discipline you employees if they act up seriously will fix the problem. But the behavior must be consistent from now on. If he allows even one instance of bad behavior to happen without a consequence, he will never fix the problem.

"NOTHING is more important in a database than integrity." ESquared

 

[Welshbird]

SQLSister - I agree.

One of the best bits of advice I ever had was from my (very wise) Dad.

They don't pay you to be popular. They pay you to get the job done. Being liked is a bonus

Fee

The question should be [red]Is it worth trying to do?[/red] not [blue] Can it be done?[/blue]

 

[SQLSister]

What he has right now are not employees but spoiled two-year olds. Control can be regained but it won't be easy and it won't be pretty. Once they have been allowed to behave badly, people resist being forced to behave far more strongly than if they had noever been allowed to misbehave. I suspect the real problem might be the person has difficulty being the one who must enforce the rules just like the parent with the out of control children. A person who places a high value on popularity may not have the personality type to successfully be a manager.

"NOTHING is more important in a database than integrity." ESquared

 

[stackdump]

That quote is perfect!, I can use that.

I'm travelling tomorrow and will meet with 'John'. I really want him to get a grip and do well. But... I will need to give him a target to straighten this situation out and I'll also need to find someway of measuring the improvement.

 

[stackdump]

I did a little more searching for literature on this subject. I found as many articles saying that the boss/subordinate should be close friends, as I did the opposite. So I guess the jury is out on this one.

One thing I did come across that was a new perspective I had not thought of...

A boss develops a strong friendship with his/her subordinates, inevitably friendships with some people are stronger than others, due to age, similar interests, hobbies, tastes etc. The strength of the friendship with any individual may have no connection with the skill level or performance level of that individual. When it comes to appraisals, how does the boss naturally distribute the gradings? To his/her best friends and favorites?, or to the best performing, best skilled people, that are not perhaps their favorite and with which the boss has not perhaps forged a strong friendship? Does the boss want to risk the friendships that have been cultivated? Hmmm...

Many high performing employees are not popular figures, because they consistently challenge others but by challenging all the time, they can effect significant improvements and progress. In this situation, popularity and worth to the company are not connected.

A second problem is that if a 'favorite' receives a promotion (which may be well deserved), it can be perceived by other subordinates that this was obtained due to favoritism rather than by merit.

So the message that came from that article, was that the boss can certainly have a friendship with all employees, if it is uniform. If they are managing a disjoint group that do not interact well with each other, then the boss must maintain a greater but equal distance from all subordinates. A bosses challenge is to take such a disjoint group and turn it into a close team. When it is a closely bonded group of people, that 'distance' can be reduced.

Life is soooo complicated!

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Does the boss want to risk the friendships that have been cultivated?

In my opinion this is very easy, they have to. To go back to Fee's dad's quote it works for subordinates equally. You're not paid to be best mates with the boss and your appraisal's should not be biased in such a way. I've worked with a few people (and for a few people) who work this way and it's a quick route to demoralise/alienate alot of your workers. If you've got the control required to be in that position it shouldn't be a problem, and no-one will make a serious problem out of it.

HarleyQuinn
---------------------------------
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Get the most out of Tek-Tips, read FAQ222-2244 before posting.

 

[Craig0201]

Can I suggest you look at books on leadership instead of management.

There is not one way to have a correct relationship. Each person needs to be lead in a way which is suitable to their requirements. It's up to you to find out what that relationship.

 

[JCreamerII]

It's also not just subordinates, but co-workers as well. If your in a position to drop a dime on a co-worker it's easier for me if we aren't good friends. In my position I have to be able to resolve issues and if someone has create an issue that's needs to be dealt with, the friendship's can get in the way. It a little more than being a leader or being in management, treating people properly & with respect, and expecting the same in return. Some people don't have the people skills and may never have them.

Jim C.

 

[stackdump]

Can I suggest you look at books on leadership instead of management.

Yes. 'John' was a good team leader, but making him a manager is not working out.

 

[SQLSister]

I would suggest parenting books on Tough Love

"NOTHING is more important in a database than integrity." ESquared

 

[Craig0201]

Stackdump,

What I was suggesting is that the books on leadership will give you the insight into relationships. Books on management will, generally, give you tools.

Craig

 

[stackdump]

Understood.

The postscript to this story is that I did meet up with 'John', had a long and honest discussion with him about everything. He believes he can rectify the situation and I have given him a quarter to demonstrate some improvements and to meet some targets.

I also asked him to book himself onto a Learning Tree course, there are two which seem relevant

http://www.learningtree.com/courses/222.htm

and

http://www.learningtree.com/courses/346.htm

(If I cannot help him myself I can at least hook him up with somebody who can).

Fortunately, there is also a member of his team who I knew from a previous life, who is a useful contact to gain some insider opinion as to whether things are better or worse.