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Keeping Up

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ackka

ackka

Programmer
Sep 25, 1999
269
US
Well it seems the FBI is keeeping up with computers, they have developed a small device that can fit on a keyboard and record all keystrokes. Here is the article,
I this has a definite relavance to the previous discussion of monitoring users... This type of device could be used to record every keystroke, every message, that you type in.. The implications are pretty profound...

ackka
 
"they"'ve just created a new law in great britain (or just england ? or the whole uk ? i don't remember) to allow the government to tape ALL phone calls from ANYONE :cool: ... they are already watching ALL emails ... big brother's land of dreams !!!
 
There are already keyboard monitors you can download for free to keep track of user's keystrokes. The fact that the FBI is doing it is a little disturbing though.

Let me ask you this (devil's advocate...not necessarily my views) What is the big deal about being watched by Big Brother if you're not doing anything illegal or that can be used against you? Kevin
slanek@ssd.fsi.com
 
maybe it's just that you never know what big brother will find illegal or usable against you ... maybe the fbi is thnking right now that you are asking too many questions ;-)
 
Now there's a thought ;)

I will be honest with you both. There are some people whom I feel probably need to be watched. I know it's kinda wrong, but for the greater good of society I'll forfeit some of my privacy and break my self-imposed code of ethics. Kevin
slanek@ssd.fsi.com
 
Kevin,

I forget who said it, but theres a quote "Those that will trade freedom for security will lose both."

To play devil's advocate, has there ever been a case where a freedom was lost, but society was made safer in the exchange?
I haven't been able to think of any.

Steve
 
I don't believe that statement can be applied across the board. I think it would be true in most cases, however.

Code: 
"To play devil's advocate, has there ever been a case where a freedom was lost, but society was made safer in the exchange?"

In Japan, the right to own a firearm was taken away long ago. As a result (either directly or indirectly) ALL violent crime has reduced. The Japanese are terrified of what they see in America. To them we look like the movie version of the Old West.
Kevin
slanek@ssd.fsi.com
 
Good come-back, Kevin. But I can think of numerous instances where freedom was lost and society benefted. Start with *any* law and end with the bill of rights.

Every law is a consumation of compromises. Everybody loses and everybody wins. Hopefully, we'll be somewhere in the middle.
VCA.gif

Alt255@Vorpalcom.Intranets.com
​
 
You're absolutely right. I'd like to tack this onto what you've already said; so many of our laws (to include the Bill of Rights) are so archaic that they are lost on today's society. People make such a stink about what our forefathers intended, that they oftentimes don't realize that if our forefathers could see how America has changed they'd probably re-write the whole darn thing.

We change with the times, but govern ourselves with 200+ year old laws.

Kevin
slanek@ssd.fsi.com
 
I disagree Kevin. The forefathers knew exactly what they were doing. Remember how America started: the complete replacement of a governmental system. Not just the people, but the system. Our entire societal system is based on freedom. Any loss of freedom hurts our society. There may be a benefit in one area, but, as Alt255 hinted at, there is a corresponding hurt in another area.

I would definitely not say that Japan's society is an overall better one than ours. The following quote from an actual speech given a number of years ago about a similar situation shows one risk they're taking:

"This year will go down in history. For the first time a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
- Adolph Hitler, 1935
Jeff
masterracker@hotmail.com

If everything seems to be going well: you don't have enough information.......
 
Jeff, with all due respect, do you honestly believe our forefathers knew what they were doing when they elected to ignore blacks, women, Native Americans, et all. when they formed our government? I'm sure you'll agree they weren't right about everything. I also don't think they pictured gang wars in the streets where 12 year olds had AK-47s and UZIs either.

As far as Japan goes, I wouldn't say they were a better society, but they are, without question, a more peaceful society.

Also, at the risk of alienating myself, what was wrong with the quote you gave? Hitler was a sick S.O.B. and a murderer, but I don't think that just because HE said it, it's automatically wrong. He could've said, "I like ice cream." That doesn't mean liking ice cream is wrong. I don't believe that Hitler's gun legislations were the source of Germany's woes.

Wake up America! It's time to make changes in the way we handle ourselves and each other. Kevin
slanek@ssd.fsi.com
 
Kevin,
Do You honestly beleive that any gun legislation will ever take guns out of the hands of criminals? Of course it won't. Maybe you don't realize this but criminals break the law, thats what makes them criminals. Another point you seem to be missing is that the right to keep and bear arms is one of the very basic rights we have as citizens of this country.
These days everyone wants the government to hold their hand and keep them safe. Gun laws are one example, but there are many more. People vote for motorcycle helmet laws, giving police another excuse to pull them over and ticket them. The only person made safer by this law is the person riding the motorcycle. Shouldnt that be his choice? If dangerous activities are to be outlawed what about whitewater rafting, skydiving, rock climbing. Should we be allowed out after dark?
My little sister goes to a high school where they have a zero tolerance policy on drugs. One of her classmates brought midol(an over the counter pain releiver) to school for her cramps. She was suspended for a week and sent to drug rehab. Remember the little boy who brought a GI Joe action figure to school and was suspended on a zero tolerance gun policy. For a 2cm long toy gun. Do these examples seem ridiculous, even laughable. They should but they are examples of what happens when the public aggrees to trade freedom for a false feeling of safety.
Any Parents would support strict penalties for children who actually bring guns or drugs to school but what happened to common sense? News flash: all the beuracracy and red tape of the government prevents common sense. We have to take some of the responsibility for common sense on ourselves by not voting away our rights under some high concept banner like NO GUNS IN THE HANDS OF KIDS or NO DRUGS or SAFER SOCIETY. What you really end up with is a country lacking the very freedom it was founded on and a bunch of lemmings wondering why their safer society never happened.
People these days don't understand what freedom is all about, they don't even realize its a good thing. You want complete, iron fisted government control? Make no mistake about it every law you vote into existence that takes away a freedom is moving us one step closer. By the time we realize it it's going to be too late. So be careful what you wish for. Or move to japan. Ruairi

Could your manufacturing facility benefit from real time process monitoring? Would you like your employees to be able to see up to the minute goal and actual production?
For innovative, low cost solutions check out my website.
 
Ruairi,
1. The right to own slaves was one of those basic rights. I'm going to assume you're not too burnt-up about losing that right though.

2. Helmet laws are state laws, not federal laws. Irrelevent in this discussion, but I think helmets should be mandatory. Does making it a law eliminate the riders ability to make his choice? No. There are consequences though.

3. Who said anything about "outlawing" dangerous activities? Not me.

4. Your sister's high school is being ridiculous, yes even laughable. You're absolutely right, people can be idiotic. Again, these aren't federal laws though. Sounds like the principal or super needs to be fired for being irrational.

5.
Code: 
"by not voting away our rights under some high concept banner like NO GUNS IN THE HANDS OF KIDS or NO DRUGS or SAFER SOCIETY."
Seriously, is there something wrong with trying to achieve one of these "high concept banners?"

6. Your last paragraph is the kicker. What in the world are you so afraid of? Let me tell you something, I was an American serviceman living in Japan for 4 long years. I love my country and spent all 4 years wishing I was back in the states. However, I spent 4 years living without fear...for the most part. Tell me what is wrong with that. The 4 years we spent there were the most safe my daughter has ever been. Do you want to know what people over there are afraid of? The Americans. Face it, they only know what they see on the news. They see postal workers knocking off 10 or 11 of their co-workers. They see bands of individuals stockpiling an arsenal in their "compounds" (for deer hunting I'm sure.) They see children fighting and dying for "control" of a city block. They see kids shoot up their schools and classmates. They see a very violent America. That stuff does not happen there. Look man, America is a dangerous place. I love it though. I want to see things change.

7. Make criminals caught with guns sit in a cell for 10 years, no questions asked, and see how many of them continue to carry one. Kevin
slanek@ssd.fsi.com
 
I started this, so let me make a plea to end it here before it turns into a complete flame war.

The reason I threw out the Hitler quote was to illustrate that what some people are willing to give up for what they see as a black and white benefit others see as a risky gray area and still others will see it as a loss of something they see as unquestionably more important to them than the benefit.

I could go on in this thread indefinitely as well, but this kind of argument is like politics or religion. It's inherently unwinnable because no one is going to change anyone else's mind.

Let's just dead-end this one and move on.
Jeff
masterracker@hotmail.com

If everything seems to be going well: you don't have enough information.......
 
1) Slavery was something that was accepted at the time and is very obviously wrong today. No disagreement there.

2,3) I would argue that by saying you support mandatory helmet laws you ARE agreeing to "outlaw dangerous activities". At least in that particular case. Why should there be consequences?

4) It's not an isolated case, this stuff actually happens in schools across the country. And i think you're missing the whole point to what i'm saying. I'm not talking about federal or state laws, i'm talking about peoples desire to forget about their guaranteed rights because they think it will make them safer. The point to those examples was that once you start allowing extreme, zero tolerance laws to be passed they end up being used against people that are not criminals in the first place. The principal would never be fired for that because she is operating by the letter of the law. Zero tolerance means zero tolerance, after all and midol is technically a drug.

5) There is nothing wrong with those goals but this country was founded on freedom. I for one am not willing to give up that freedom to live in a "nicer" but tightly controlled society.

6) Do you live in fear in this country? I don't. And anyway how do guns cause any of these problems? They don't. These kids having guns in school is already illegal. How bout we enforce that law before we go off making more laws that can't possibly be enforced. If this is becoming a big problem put metal detectors in every school. It would make a lot more sense than using school shootings as a reason to take away our constitutional right to have guns. It would also give the kids actual safety, not just the illusion. Oh, by the way it's not the "right to keep and bear arms for deer hunting".

7) People are made to sit in cells for the rest of their lives for murder. There are still a huge number of murders every day. People are executed for murder. It doesn't stop murder. What, then makes you think that a 10 year prison term would stop criminals from carrying guns?

I'm not some crazy malitia guy camped out up in the hills.
I don't think that everything's great as long as we can have guns. There are a lot of problems in this country and we need to find ways to solve them. I just happen to be someone who beleives that america loses its identity and it's greatness if we give up our rights in the process. I also don't beleive for a second that if guns were outlawed tomorrow that criminals would not have guns anymore, even in 15 years. There are too many guns out there now, a great many of them untracable. I firmly believe in trigger locks (anyone who has guns and children in the same house certainly needs to use them), i beleive in waiting periods and registration of all guns. These measures will work towards keeping guns out of the hands of criminals just as effectively as outlawing guns. I just don't believe in slowly losing a constitutional right without even knowing where the laws are going or what they actually hope to accomplish in concrete terms. Ruairi

Could your manufacturing facility benefit from real time process monitoring? Would you like your employees to be able to see up to the minute goal and actual production?
For innovative, low cost solutions check out my website.
 
Ruairi,
Let me preface by saying I truly respect your opinion. Also, I'm not arguing or fighting with you. Quite honestly, I'm learning from you. I agree with you wholehartedly that trigger locks should be mandatory, that metal detectors should be used, and that
Code: 
"losing a constitutional right without even knowing where the laws are going or what they actually hope to accomplish in concrete terms"
can lead to no good.

You and I both know we coddle our criminals. We let these people eat, sleep, work out, watch cable, go to college, get book deals, and become martyrs on our tax dollars. I think it's crap. Murder happens, you're right, but we as a society (criminals included) can agree that if you kill, you get punished. The majority of murders are crimes of passion and can (arguably) not be helped. So I have a hard time drawing a solid connection between carrying a gun and murdering someone. The two are on a different plane.

I think my initial point has been masked in all this emotion floating around here. What I was saying is: It's very hard to come to terms with giving up a freedom. There are some that are pointless though. We did it with slave ownership and we did it with the right to vote. We changed the Constitution. Heck, the right to keep and bear arms was never in the Constitution to begin with, it was a change.

I would love to see metal detectors in school. I can't imagine trying to argue against it, but people do.

I realize the founding fathers weren't talking about deer hunting. They were talking mainly about defending the towns. Would they want someone to defend 5th and Main with an M-16 in 2001? I doubt it. What would they have thought about the Branch Davidian compound in Waco? Was that part of their design?

I think people take the issue too lightly. It seems like everytime there is a major incident (Columbine, Xerox, Boston last week) folks say, "Why aren't we doing anything?" Then they get on with their busy lives.

Code: 
"I also don't beleive for a second that if guns were outlawed tomorrow that criminals would not have guns anymore, even in 15 years."
I don't think you're wrong, and I don't think you're right. I really don't know what to think. I hate to bring up the Japanese again, but they made them illegal, made the punishment harsh, and now no one really cares. No one over there feels like they've had something taken away. They don't lack any of the basic freedoms we have. In fact, in many ways, we have less freedom than they do. They just can't have guns. They like it that way, but their grandfathers didn't. That's all I'm sayin'
Kevin
slanek@ssd.fsi.com
 
all good points. it bothers me when people blindly accept new legislation as making them safer. Most of these people just jump on the bandwagon and don't even think that they are giving up anything. You obviously realize the loss of freedoms and weigh it against the benefits you see (like your daughters safety, the most important thing to any parent). I cant argue with reasoning like that, we just disagree on how to achieve the safety we would both like to see and on what we should compromise to get there.
Ruairi

Could your manufacturing facility benefit from real time process monitoring? Would you like your employees to be able to see up to the minute goal and actual production?
For innovative, low cost solutions check out my website.
 
Ruairi,
I think we all want the same end result because we're all decent human beings.

I have thoroughly enjoyed our discussion. I'm headed home for the day.

Thanks for the enlightening exchange. Kevin
slanek@ssd.fsi.com
 
Well definetely some interesting viewpoints on gun control :)

I thought i would shove this in since i started the post........

I think the problem does not lay with law makers, but with a society,movies, music that imortialize men and women who have so little respect for human life....(James Bond, Natural Born Killers....) but this is a side issue

Oh and how did we get on this tangent, here is some more interesting stuff on what the FBI is up to Email tapping program that can just as easily record what you are doing as the "bad guy"....

later
 
I've always been very skeptical about blaming movies and music. I think more responsibility should be put on the parents. I have a six year old girl. I have friends who also have children the same age. You wouldn't believe the crap these people let their kids watch. I don't think I'm a fuddy dud, but I do pay attention to what my daughter is watching.

Having said that...
What do you guys think of this? She has a TV in her room. The other night I went in there and she had changed the channel to one of those real-life crime scene/FBI/forensic science shows. She was enthralled by it! Is that a bad thing for kids? It certainly doesn't glorify killing. Not only that, but in these shows, the bad guy always gets caught. I don't know, I just thought I'd ask.

Just so you all know, if she's watching TV in her room (which isn't very often) we get up and check on her every 10-15 min. We don't just turn her loose in there. ;) Kevin
slanek@ssd.fsi.com
 
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