HTML Frames

[BobbaFet]

Hey all,

I want to make a webpage for the software that I create and years ago I actually got some training in it in school. Thing is, I've always liked frames because it gives such nice structure to a webpage but I was reading that HTML 5 will probably not support it. Here is what I am wondering:

1. Will that also mean browsers won't support it anymore? I mean, I could of course just reference a HTML 4.01 DTD, couldn't I?

2. To get simular structure in my website (I really don't like the way current websites are set up with just everything jammed into 1 page, messy in my opinion), what could I use instead of frames?

I have been reading up on iframes, and it sort of seems that I would be able to do the same with that as with frames or am I severely mistaken now?

Thank you for reading my question,

BobbaFet

BobbaFet

if not Programming = 'Severe Migraine' then
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[BobbaFet]

Got some other issues with HTML5 as well, like how the ^$%& am I supposed to use <table> for example? From what I read all it's HTML 4.01 attributes are being done away with and, as far as I can tell, they don't have any replacements?

BobbaFet

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                       ShowMessage('Eureka!');

 

[audiopro]

Divs formatted by stylesheets are far more versatile than frames ever were and the resulting sites are much more SEO friendly too.
As for tables, they are still used for their original purpose, tabulating data.
Lazy website designers still use them for page layout which is all very well until the page has to be edited.
Many of the new standards are to make web pages format properly on these ridiculously small portable devices which are taking over some peoples lives.

Keith

http://www.studiosoft.co.uk

 

[BobbaFet]

SEO friendly? What does that mean?

So basically I (we probably, theres bound to be more people who aren't thrilled with HTML 5.0) am condemned to just squeezing everything in one page?

But as for tables: so am I to understand you correctly that rather than setting the height width and all that good stuff in HTML I now need to do that in CSS?

BobbaFet

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[audiopro]

SEO Friendly.
Linking to a frames within a frame set has always been a problem for search engines as they will always return the URL of the parent page.

What is it that you can do with frames that you cannot do with styled divs?

So basically I (we probably, theres bound to be more people who aren't thrilled with HTML 5.0) am condemned to just squeezing everything in one page?

I don't see what the problem is with that. A web page presents content to a visitor and a single page behaves exactly like a sheet of 'old fashioned' paper where all the contents are displayed to the viewer.
Frames split this simple page into separate pages, which can each have their own scroll bars therefore requiring the visitor to search around the page for hidden information.

Iframes do have their place as do all the other options available but it is a case of using the right tool for the job.

Keith

http://www.studiosoft.co.uk

 

[BobbaFet]

Well, for one, you cannot resize styled divs (without some serious javascripting anyway) but that is hardly the point.

But seriously, I think it is perhaps because I am used to working modularly. When I program software, it is very much appreciated when you split stuff out, hence I like frames, because they allow you to do that too: to have seperate documents for seperate features.

There isn't really a problem with having to put everything into one page, as there isn't that much code inside an HTML document anyway (at least, not compared to software coding) but I just think it is good practise to do it that way and that was why I asked.

BobbaFet

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[vacunita]

Its time for you to learn a server side scripting language then. This will help you modularize your website, so not everything is part of the same html document. You can then include the bits and pieces you need from other documents when you need them.


Also known as templating, where you have a standard look and structure to a page in one document, but the actual content for the various areas of the site are in different files.

As far as resizing goes, you should not need to. Divs automatically resize to fit their content. So instead of scrolling little sections of your page you get to see everything with a single scrollbar. You can make divs scroll to if you need to, but you should never be resizing sections just to see their content. That is sloppy web site design. your content should appear to the user in a readable friendly fashion regardless of their settings.



----------------------------------
Phil AKA Vacunita
----------------------------------
Ignorance is not necessarily Bliss, case in point:
Unknown has caused an Unknown Error on Unknown and must be shutdown to prevent damage to Unknown.

Behind the Web, Tips and Tricks for Web Development.

http://behindtheweb.blogspot.com/

 

[audiopro]

I think it is perhaps because I am used to working modularly

As someone who spent many years believing that Microsoft Frontpage was a web page editor, I feel you may have the same mind set as I once had. It took a lot of adapting but I have finally got my head round writing HTML manually and the freedom that it has given me is amazing. No longer am I constrained by how the big companies tell me I should create web pages, I am now at liberty to produce what I want, not what they think I might want to do. You made the comment of there being very little code in HTML compared with writing software. In the same way, code written using frames and tables can equally be reduced by using CSS.

You say that a styled div cannot be resized but neither can a frame really. I suppose it can in a way but the layout changes dramatically each time the screen size is altered, so not really an objection.

The transition from tables (and frames actually) to styled web pages was a painful proces at times but the difference in what I produce now was worth the hassle.

I don't intend to demean you with these comments but you seem to be going through the same crisis I went through a few years ago. If that is the case then let me assure you that the transition was definately worth it.


Keith

http://www.studiosoft.co.uk

 

[BobbaFet]

oh, don't get me wrong I don't feel demeaned in any way, shape or form. If I don't want to be told I am wrong about stuff then I shouldn't ask questions in the first place.

As for serverside scripting, I think I am not going to dive into that just yet. I first want to get a solid basis in HTML, CSS and JavaScript (well, I have a pretty good understanding of them, I just need to get back into it as it's been so long since I did anything with them).

So it's all about spans and divs nowadays, that's cool, I'll just have to wrap my head around it and "forget" frames and iframes exist. I'll see how far I get and if I cannot solve it on my own I'll come here and bother you guys with my questions ;-)

BobbaFet

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[ChrisHunt]

It's important to understand the nuts & bolts of how HTML, CSS and Javascript work, so you're doing the right thing.

However, when it comes to building a real live website to talk to the real world, coding up individual pages of HTML (or even individual frames of HTML) is a rather 20th century approach.

I would recommend you use some form of Content Management System (CMS) to keep the content of your site seperate from its presentation - how's that for "working modularly"?

Wordpress is powerful and flexible, even if you don't want to run a blog on your site. Drupal is more flexible, but more complicated too. There are plenty of others - many of them free - available on most paid hosting set-ups.

-- Chris Hunt
Webmaster & Tragedian
Extra Connections Ltd

 

[audiopro]

I quite liked the 20th. Century
We had screens big enough to see, operating systems that fitted onto a few floppy discs and dial up connections which allowed us time to make coffee - ah the good old days.

I work with a combination of Perl, PHP, MySQL and pure HTML to get the job done - works for me.

Keith

http://www.studiosoft.co.uk

 

[BobbaFet]

HTML, CSS and JavaScript for templating along with my own custom software to provide content, do merging and upload it to my webserver ;-) Lucky me, if I need something like that I can just make it lol.

I do want to get into PHP though, I really have taken a liking to PHP forums and I want to incorperate that into my site. It's just that I am not ready for it yet, and since I have a pretty strong sense of order, I need to "get this out of the way" first.

And when it comes to the 20th century being awesome... yes, I agree, but I remember my dial-up bills hahaha

BobbaFet

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                       ShowMessage('Eureka!');