How to Edit .pdf documents?

[abrogard]

I admit I have no knowledge and little interest in all things Adobe.

But I have bought pagemaker, photoshop, premier, golive, acrobat, illustrator and probably more there somewhere.

Why? Looking for how the hell to work with these .pdf files that keep turning up in my inbox.

Often they are forms that just need me to enter stuff in the fields - I have to download, print, write on, scan in, upload all of those.

Sometimes they are docs I want to use and modify myself (perhaps only save a part of). that's even worse, I have to put them through something like Corel and then into Word and massage for yonks to get something reasonable.

All the Adobe stuff I have - to my utter astonishment - seems incapable of helping me. Most of the programmes won't even upload a .pdf document, for god's sake.

Adobe help at their site just runs you around in circles.

I hate 'em. And their .pdf format. But I'm stuck with it.

Please help - what is the easiest way to work with these files?

regards,
abrogard
jepboro@yahoo.com

 

[Eggles]

OK - to READ PDF files, all you need is the free Acrobat Reader. If it is installed on your computer, double clicking on the PDF will launch the Reader, allowing you to view the PDF (assuming you have your file associations set up - otherise launch the Reader and go to File>Open the PDF).

Re: Often they are forms that just need me to enter stuff in the fields - I have to download, print, write on, scan in, upload all of those.

For this you need the full version of Acrobat, which will allow you to enter data in a PDF.

Re: Sometimes they are docs I want to use and modify myself (perhaps only save a part of).

Now this is the tricky bit. You can save the text (and graphics separately) out of a PDF, but it will not be laid out the same way. It will retain some of its formatting e.g. bold, italic, but will be in RTF (rich text format). But if you just need the text, then all you need is the Reader (File>Export document to text) but the full version of Acrobat does this better, as it lets you select parts of the text (and also select and save a copy of graphics). As long as the PDF is not protected, then there should be no problem.

Re: Most of the programmes won't even upload a .pdf document..

Not sure what you mean by 'upload' but all the Adobe programs you mention will allow you to create a PDF of their native file.

PDFs - portable document format - are great. They allow the person who created them to display their document looking exactly like how it was designed (unlike HTML), they can be small enough to display on the web or send by email or large and complex enough to use as the final hand-off file for printing by commercial offset press. They are platform independent, meaning they can be easily read on both Macs and PCs. They can be secured, meaning that people cannot extract and change stuff in them (good for 'official' documents for example), they can be watermarked and they can be opened and read by a free application available from Adobe. What more could you want? People sending you PDF forms that you are required to fill out and return need to have their head examined, as many people will have no choice but to use the rounabout method you desribe (much better to send a Word document).

And have you really purchased 'pagemaker, photoshop, premier, golive, acrobat, illustrator and probably more there somewhere' - just to handle PDFs???? What were you thinking and who advised you and I wish I had that amount of money to spend on software (and presumably you don't know how to use or even what it is used for?)

 

[BionicJohn]

Hi, abrogard

> Looking for how the hell to work with these .pdf files that keep turning up in my inbox.

You should view PDFs as the end of the design process. They are e-paper - the electronic equivalent of what comes out of a printer.

Acrobat (not Acrobat Reader) has limiting editing facilities of PDFs, but for major changes, you need the original source, a PageMaker file for instance.

You do seem to have dived straight in at the deep end, so you'll need to do learning.

Try this:

http://www.adobe.co.uk/products/acrobat/adobepdf.html

Iechyd da! John
18:28 05/06/2003 BST

 

[abrogard]

Well thank you both. BigJohn seems to have given me the definitive thing I was looking for. He says 'you need the original source... a pagemaker file for instance'.

This is the design goal of .pdf files - that they cannot be worked with without the original source? It would seem so.

Well I'd say they should abandon it. They can be worked on albeit with difficulty. That's one. And then, two, there's easier ways to ensure the integrity of a file.

Matter of interest, yep, I did, I spent all that money. I went crazy. I did have bad advice and I had a wrong idea of which avenue of computing I was thinking to pursue. I'd been a programmer, had a golden handshake and thought I was going to get into this new field of - what? Business oriented graphics or somesuch. Or I was just going to be an Adobe expert and follow their fortunes.

Now I have no money and no lingering interest in Adobe and their software, their path. Quite the opposite. I have formed an aversion to them because of responses to my queries by the company and what I see as gatesian marketing that fragments the product and support to milk the user to the max.

You don't know what I mean by 'upload'? I mean, open, import, take in, use, read.

Adobe pushes their .dpf format for all it's worth and never once, up front, where they are hooking the consumer, do they tell the truth, which is what you guys have explained to me: It's a method of creating files no one can do anything with except the creator. Just great for friendly group computing, sharing with your friends.

That's exactly the same as an encryption/checksum paradigm that's been around for centuries and which there's bugger all consumer demand for, really.

It's false representation.

Yakkida, John - I'll check the URL. thanks again to you both. If you have second thoughts and find a way please let me know.

regards,
abrogard.

 

[BionicJohn]

Hi adrogard,

> that they cannot be worked with without the original source? It would seem so

It depends what changes you have in mind. Acrobat can add/delete/re-order pages, make hyperlinks and thumbnails, and even edit text in a limited fashion, but for substantial changes, you need the original from which the PDF was created.

The parallel is bieng given the printed page and being expected to alter it - you can do so much with Tippex and scissors; ideally you need the original file and the associated application.

You say: "work with these .pdf files that keep turning up in my inbox."

What are you expected to do with them?
Generally speaking they are at the end of the publishing process.

> It's false representation.

I think you have misunderstood the tools Adobe have created and developed over the years for publishing on paper and on-line.

What are you intending to use the software you have bought for?

Iechyd da! John
00:56 06/06/2003 BST

 

[abrogard]

Hi John...

I'm not going to use it for anything. I've got a computer stuffed full of software I want to come to grips with and the Adobe stuff can languish..

 

[Eggles]

Where do you live, Abrogard? (I'm in Australia and Big John is in the UK). I would love to take all that software off your hands but I guess that is wishful thinking on my part

I am sorry that you have had such a bad experience with Adobe. I use their software (not ALL the programs you listed e.g. not GoLive or Premier) for desktop publishing - creating brochures and posters and CD covers/labels and small booklets etc. In my job, I am constantly exposed to PDFs as I am partly involved in the Quality Assurance side of the organisation. All their policies, procedures, work instructions etc are created in a variety of applications (Word, Pagemaker, Illustrator, Visio, Excel) and are available in PDF format on their intranet for all employees to view/print. They don't need to have the software that created them on their computers to do so (which would be the case if they were left in their original format). This is just ONE of the useful sides of being able to PDF documents, no matter which application produced them. They are the electronic version of printed material (which can also be printed). The grand dream of the 'paperless' office is a little closer since the introduction of PDFs. But they have so many more uses, some of which I alluded to in my earlier reply.

 

[carlow]

Hi all,

If you want to edit a pdf file there is a way to do it with just another adobe product.... Illustrator is the key. If you start illustrator and us the open command and select the pdf you want to edit it will open in Illustrator. Everything is grouped ant the fonts are set to outlines, but by ungrouping and regrouping the the text lines you can make changes. By the way this is also a good way to check if a particular pdf file has no problems in it.

Hope this is a good hint
grillhouse

 

[abrogard]

Ha ha ha.... a clue...

Thank you grillhouse... when I get back to my machine I'll check out what you say... I thought I tried Illustrator but perhaps I was too hasty...

I've learned a bit that I should have know all along from this thread. Like the files are created from numerous different source files. Nobody has said whether or not a .pdf keeps a record of what the source was.

But I guess the basic hassle is you've got to get back to the original source to find available the right fonts, line spacings and whatever.

Like I've been thinking they are created in Adobe, but they're not. They're translated into .pdf format (which I'm told is like an image format) by Adobe.

You can't translate them back properly without the original environment that created them.

Is that about the way it is?

Anyway, I'll check out your illustrator tip.

thanks
abrogard.

 

[Eggles]

Re: Like the files are created from numerous different source files.

Yes - almost anything that you can see on screen can be converted to a PDF.

Re: Nobody has said whether or not a .pdf keeps a record of what the source was.

Good question. I am not a programmer so I cannot read any coding, but I DO know when you open a PDF in Acrobat, when you use the key combination Ctrl/D, the default name shows the application it was produced from (if the author has not changed the name).

Re: Like I've been thinking they are created in Adobe, but they're not. They're translated into .pdf format (which I'm told is like an image format) by Adobe.

The word 'Adobe' describes the manufacturer, not the program. It is like using the word 'Microsoft' to describe Word or Internet Explorer or Visio - all very different applications made by MS. So when you say "I've been thinking they are created in Adobe" - well they are (Adobe Distiller) but there are a number of other software programs that can do the same thing i.e. create a PDF of an electronic file.

The PDF format is much more than an image format, but it can be -sort of- described that way.

 

[abrogard]

Oh.. howdy Eggles... sorry, I owed you a response... I'm busy chasing up websites and dyndns stuff that won't work because of China's IP spoofing and port blocking... all my carefully set up world wide spider web of pages has come crashing down.... woe is me....

Mate, I'm in China... I can't give you my software... I probably wouldn't anyway because I'm a hoarder. I get infuriated when I can't do something because I haven't got some little programme and so I keep everything for just that day.....

If you were a good friend I'd share it with you.... I'm not a total stickler for this one copy one user thing especially when software is getting old - and don't forget mine is, I don't have the most recent editions.

regards,
abrogard

 

[BionicJohn]

Hi, abrogard,

> Nobody has said whether or not a .pdf keeps a record of what the source was.

If you open the PDF in Acrobat or Acrobat Reader and click File -> Properties, you will get a clue. It very much depends on the original appliaction and the routes used to create the PDF. If it's Pagemaker's Export… AdobePDF…, Indesign's Export, it will say say so, but if the PDF has been created via a two stage process of creating a PS printer file and distilling with Acrobat Distiller, all you're likely to see is the version of Distiller.

So it's hit and miss, I'm afraid.

> I've been thinking they are created in Adobe, but they're not.

As Lyn says - it could be ANY application from any software house that produces an output to a printer. It's possible to convert these browser pages to PDF.

> You can't translate them back properly without the original environment that created them

The best way is undoubtedly to have the originals.

I believe it is possible to buy an application with converts PDF to Word, but it is very expensive and far from perfect. Ask in an Acrobat forum for details.

It is possible to extract the graphics and the text from a PDF using Acrobat, and so recreate the original. But it's lengthy and really only a last resort.

Iechyd da! John
14:32 07/06/2003 BST

 

[Eggles]

Wow - you're in China! A 'conversation' between China, UK and Australia. Isn't the internet amazing?

 

[BionicJohn]

Hi, Lyn,

China, Aus and UK, eh? Now why can't I find people up the road in Chester or Liverpool to chat with? I must get out more.

Hi, abrogard,

> If you were a good friend I'd share it with you....

I didn't hear that.

Iechyd da! John
16:33 07/06/2003 BST

 

[abrogard]

Hi Eggles...

yeah.. it's a constant buzz to me... it is actually bigger than we see, the interconnect, but it is masked by the language problem. i.e. lots of people that would talk don't because they don't speak the language.

But this should be overcome shortly. I don't know why it is taking so long. We've got the technology for instant transliteration now. Not translation, note, I said 'transliteration'. That means translate word by word which often makes a kinda dumb sentence, shocking grammar, garbled sense.

But it is enough to get comms going.

Like I know all about this being in China, see? Unless you think about it you wouldn't realise that it's extra hard to learn Chinese because of all those characters. It means you must learn Chinese (i.e. how to read it) before you can learn Chinese! (i.e. by reading signs and papers and figuring out what words mean).

Like French you can learn in France by looking at the names on the shops and buildings and street signs - you are immersed in comprehensible French and you'll start picking it up, unless you deliberately don't want to.

But you can't do any such thing with Chinese or Japanese.

HOWEVER - this is what I mean by we've got the technology - character recognition is developed far enough that the kids in china have hand held pda's and calculator type translators that they can draw the chinese character into and it will recognise it from their handwriting and give them the english translation for that character.

AND digital cameras and web cams are developed far enough that they can take high res pictures.

So we could point a little camera at the world - at street signs, at newspapers, at menus, at shop signs - and have it instantly transliterate for you.

You could do that out in the street.

Having it happen within the computer on the text printed in a computer is child's play.

So I predict an enormous explosion of comms before long - an enormous implosion of the world into one tight community of all races.

And then we'll see what's what. We'll see all the intelligent, good, decent hard working poverty stricken ones out there, marginalised by the artificial cost and the greed of western producers with today's technology and the contrast between them and, for instance, one of our typical well fed (i.e. overfed) time-serving bureacrats with his automatically yearly inflated salary and position hike and his total lack of dynamism, customer concern, identification with humanity and his plethora of toys - his great house, his cars, his boat, his weekender, his superannuation fund, his investments, his bank account...

do you get my drift? I don't know the figures but you know the story, it's something like 10 percent of the world has 90 of the world's resources and wealth. And we are in that 10%. And we are just plain greedy, grasping, oppressive to the rest of the world. Which currently don't talk to us. Mainly because of the language barrier. Also because of the poverty barrier - they don't yet have enough computers on the net.

But I can't see that it won't change and change swiftly.

And that will be an interesting time, I think. I look forward to it.

Sorry about that... a bit off-subject? Cut an paste it into another thread in another forum. Or change the title: will .pdf files be valued by the oppressed, marginalised majority of the world?

ciao.

 

[abrogard]

Just getting back to you, Grillhouse, thanks for the tip. I checked illustrator again and it reminded me of why I left it in the first place. It runs like a two legged dog on my machine. (1.6G Intel, 256M etc..).

I put the file into Corel and it zoomed through the process like it was nothing.

And this jogged my memory further. I think I used Pagemaker to process a book I've written. I wanted it to format into tiny print and so's I could print the book out two pages to a sheet. Got it?

And then I would print on the backs of those pages in the same way.

And then I would put all these double pages together - one on top of the other - and then I'd have a section of the book. And it would read page 1 - half of back of the first sheet - page two half of front of first sheet. Page three half of back of second... get the idea?

It's elementary. It's the way books are printed.

I couldn't find how it would enable me to do that.

I haven't found how I can do it with anything yet - that project has beens shelved for quite a while.

If I've missed it (and anyone is still reading this thread) please tell me where it is and I'll resurrect that piece of software and I'll do it... and many thanks to you...

regards,

abrogard.

 

[abrogard]

Just getting back to you, Grillhouse, thanks for the tip. I checked illustrator again and it reminded me of why I left it in the first place. It runs like a two legged dog on my machine. (1.6G Intel, 256M etc..).

I put the file into Corel and it zoomed through the process like it was nothing.

And this jogged my memory further. I think I used Pagemaker to process a book I've written. I wanted it to format into tiny print and so's I could print the book out two pages to a sheet. Got it?

And then I would print on the backs of those pages in the same way.

And then I would put all these double pages together - one on top of the other - and then I'd have a section of the book. And it would read page 1 - half of back of the first sheet - page two half of front of first sheet. Page three half of back of second... get the idea?

It's elementary. It's the way books are printed.

I couldn't find how it would enable me to do that.

I haven't found how I can do it with anything yet - that project has been shelved for quite a while.

If I've missed it (and anyone is still reading this thread) please tell me where it is and I'll resurrect that piece of software and I'll do it... and many thanks to you...

regards,

abrogard.

 

[BionicJohn]

Hi, abrogard,

> It's the way books are printed.

The Build Booklet utility (Utilities -> Plug-ins -> build Booklet…) will do some of that for you, but for serious publishing, the printer will do it with sophisticated imposition software.

Iechyd da! John
14:02 14/06/2003 BST

 

[abrogard]

Thank you John.

'the printer' ? You don't mean the machine? You mean the man I send the thing to for printing?

Before we get there I want a 'prototype', that's what I was trying to build. I'm in China, with language problems. Always it is best to show what you want rather than try to talk about it.

I was (am) astounded that this feature wasn't stock standard and up front. How can you call yourself a DTP package without it? Without it you are just page layout.

I will look for this 'plug-in'.

regards,

abrogard.

 

[Eggles]

The imposition plug-in IS 'stock standard' with Pagemaker. Though not with too many other layout apps. It is found in the location John stated above. In PM, once you have created your document (in the page size it is eventually to be read as - but not necessarily printed on) you then go to the menu item 'Utilities', choose 'Plug-ins in the submenu, and then choose 'Build Booklet' from it's submenu. You will be asked to specify how to build the booklet e.g. 2-up (if two pages are to be printed on the one sheet of paper e.g. two A5 pages printed side by side on A4 paper) or 4-up (e.g. printing 4 A5 pages on an A3 sheet) etc. If it is to be duplex printed (back-to-back) you will also have to specify the 'binding' method i.e. where the staples or whatever will be placed to hold the printed pages together. If you are printing two A5 pages side by side on A4 paper (a common desktop printing procedure) then you specify short edge binding (because the staples wil be placed on the short edge of the A4 paper).

Why imposition is not a well-known feature for layout programs is probably because if it is to be sent out to a commercial printer, you don't know beforehand what size paper they will be printing on (and thus what size the 'x' is in x-up) or what turning method they will use for printing back-to-back, so it is usually left to the commercial printer to do the page imposition, as they have very sophisticated software capable of laying out the pages in the cortrect order for their workflow and press machine's capabilities.

In PM, once you run the BB plug-in, it creates a new PM file - with the page order now correct for printing - which you save with a different file name and print from. If you decide to make any changes to the file, it is best to go back to the original unimposed file (which you MUST keep for sanity's sake), make the changes there and rerun the plug-in. I can't remember whether this has been mentioned earlier, but ideally, your original publication should have a total page number which is a multiple of 4 (no matter how big 'x' is in x-up). This wil avoid blank pages. However, PM will add blank pages if the total page number is not a multiple of 4 (but not necessarily where you want them, so it's a good idea to place them in yourself before running the BB e.g. on page 2 (inside of the front cover).

I hope this helps somewhat. What are you doing in China?