How Safe if VFP Advanced

[Arthur Lewis]

I came across this video which makes mention of the VFP guru Craig Boyd. Has anyone of you checked it out.
I have not installed it and am doing some due diligence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQqoLBOCTrI

 

[Dan Olsson]

I would say it's very safe if you mean the actual building of applications. I would even go so far as saying it's safer than VFP9 since he fixed a number of bugs.
The thing that might not be so safe is the legality of using it, even if I don't think the possibility that M$ should sue you is pretty low .

 

[Chris Miller]

Craig Boyd is just mentioned as author of FLLs that won't work in the 64bit version. while he says you can continue to make 32bit executables. Some other issues like OCXes he mentions can be handled with "if there's a will there's a way", again just for the 64bit version.

He has no definite answer to the question of legality, just states what he knows is bugfixes and enhancements to a product are no copyright infringement and VFPA has VFP9 as prerequisite. Well, if I was him I'd also not make a binding statement.

Chriss

 

[Arthur Lewis]

Mike Lewis, Chris Boyd what say you about the subject matter?

Thanks guys for your responses.

 

[Mike Lewis]

We have had more than one discussion here on the legality of this product. If I remember right, the issue was not one of copyright, but of the use of the name, "Visual FoxPro" or "VFP". If that's right, the issue affects the publisher of the software rather than the user.

Another issue that has been mentioned is that the publisher appears to be anonymous. At least, there is no indication on their website of who they are or where they are located. That in itself is definitely illegal in many jurisdictions, and might also be an infringement of their agreement with their credit card company.

Note that I have no special knowledge of the company or the product. The above is just based on what as been said about them elsewhere.

Mike



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Mike Lewis (Edinburgh, Scotland)

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[Chris Miller]

I think you can also only patch a software when you decompile it, which is an illegal act of its own. No idea if the end justifies the means. And this might be different in different countries or even states. So I'd consult an attorney specialized on software when you want to distribute software made with VFPA. Only they can give a definitive answer, but this might cost more than you'd like to invest.

I'd not be worried about MS, though, this has been around for years and MS didn't do anything about it, maybe it's even a relief for them because now there is a 100% (not accounting OCX and FLL for 64bit) compatible version of VFP any questions or criticism went down. I'd be surprised when they become active, I only see a slight chance when VFPA becomes very wide spread they could see it as a competition against their own suite of IDEs and programming languages. I just think they don't care about Access competitors and .NET now is so mature that it's a stable income for them. Indeed I read you get Windows 11 for free, so MS business model must have gone to selling cloud services including Office 365, also still the offline Desktop Office suites, SQL Server and other server licenses and MSDN subscriptions rather than Windows desktop versions.

I think most Windows users bought Windows installed on a hardware and MS never earned much from these OEM versions, which is another reason Windows 10 was made freely available as upgrade of Win7&8. I welcome this step anyway, Apple was doing this far longer already, their updates only cost a bit more than an OEM license last time I used an Apple MacBook, I don't know whether their policy now also is to give thos out for free, I think they mainly make money with their hardware and their user friendly reputation. The OS binds you to the platform and associated services and that's where both Apple and MS they can make money now, so giving free entry to the platform is of course a clever move. Not only for each single end user, but also for companies making use of their clouds or program for the platform and pay those costs users only indirectly pay to these ISVs.

Chriss

 

[Arthur Lewis]

Thanks Guys. So no one has reported that it has worms or viruses built into it. Mike Lewis, but I get your point about the legality. You should know also that it is free and you need to have a copy of VFP 9 Installed on your machine.

 

[Chris Miller]

I think Craig Boyd isn't reading here anymore, but what I'd like to hear from him is if he's willing to port his FLLs to 64bit, when that is a possible path to make them available for VFPA 64bit again.

Chriss

PS: I think it would be sufficient when you open source the C++ projects for the FLLs and others will care about them, I even have ideas to extend them, especially VFPEncryption. For example handling JWT. Many ingredients already exist, but this could be wrapped up in this FLL, too.

 

[Mike Lewis]

you can also only patch a software when you decompile it, which is an illegal act of its own.

Not necessarily. In fact, on the contrary. In the EU, there is a specific right to reverse engineer a product in order to ensure interoperability. I beleive there has been some case law that established that right. No doubt it is a lot more complicated than that, but that is my understanding.

Mike

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Mike Lewis (Edinburgh, Scotland)

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[Chris Miller]

Mike,

I google this:

https://vidstromlabs.com/blog/the-legal-boundaries-of-reverse-engineering-in-the-eu/

I quote Article 6 part 1 and 2;

1 (c) (c) those acts (remark: decompilation) are confined to the parts of the original program which are necessary in order to achieve interoperability.

If you want to argue for decompiling VFP9 to be able to patch it for 64bit Windows interoperability, I still have my doubts, as VFP9 works on Win64 and by now there is no pure 64bit Windows.

And then

2 (c) to be used for the development, production or marketing of a computer program substantially similar in its expression, or for any other act which infringes copyright.

I think this is the stronger argument against it. Note they only even speak of marketing, even if it's free. I think the developer only comes away with this as MS retired VFP and he's not doing more marketing than having his homepage and let others do this by "mouth-to-mouth propaganda".

In the video John Ryan has a few arguments for VFPA as necessary enhancement of enabling TEMP files to divert from the OS temp folders, as AV scanning hinders VFP apps to work and TEMP folder scanning is advisable, but he also mentions you can sett TEMP with the config.fpw. I don't follow his argument that this isn't sufficient or opens up other traps like the COMMAND you can issue. Because I) thats always a possibility even if there originally is no config.fpw and II) because you can embed a config.fpw and include ALLOWEXTERNAL=OFF to close that security hole.

Every single bugfix on the longer and longer list is a good argument for VFPA, I am very tempted, but I'll take Johns advice to consult someone about the legality, perhaps not just of VFPA but of your own project based on it, which might have less restrictions, even if your use of VFPA would be strictly speaking illegal you don't get your customers involved.

Chriss

 

[tomk3]

Hello Chris,

thanks for info, in europe there is a similar law.

What about accessing a DLL / API /active-X which is only avaliable in 64 bit ?
(I am thinking of a signining device, no 32 bit support anymore)

Or automation with a 64 bit MS office installed on customers pcs ?
I tested once and got error on createobject("Excel.application")

Regards
tom

 

[Steve Meyerson]

My take (FWIW): First, I'm not a lawyer, but I'm "Advanced" (in age at least).

Anyway I remember way way back when Dave Fulton's Fox Software (Toledo, Ohio) created an almost exact replica of dBase II. It out performed dBII. Other than that the only difference for the user was the command prompt (a dot). Ashton Tate (I think) sued them and lost. Fox did same against the buggy dBase III. (MS later figured if you can't beat'm, join'em).

My guess is unless VFPA starts taking billions in profit from MS, MS won't even notice - legal or not legal. So this all might be a solution to a problem which may not exist.

Steve

 

[Mike Lewis]

Steve, I hope you won't mind my correcting your memory. The original FoxBase was actually a clone of dBASEII Plus, not dBASE II. By the time Dave Fulton came on the scene, dBase II had long gone, and nobody mourned it. (This was in 1986.) You're right that Foxbase out-performed dBASE - by a wide margin.

In 1988, Ashton-Tate launched dBASE IV. Fox responded with a new version of Foxbase to compete with it. It was at that point that Ashton-Tate sued Fox Software. In 1990, the court ruled in Foxs's favour - something to do with doubts about whether A-T actually "owned" dBASE (can't remember the details).

As far as I remember, both dBASE III Plus and Foxbase had the dot prompt. dBASE IV has something called the Command Center instead (in fact, the dot prompt was present in dBASE IV, but it was so well hidden that a lot of users never found it).

The first version of FoxPro was released in 1989. Rushmore appeared in 1991 (in Foxpro 2.0). Microsoft purchased Fox Software in 1992, and made Dave Fulton a wealthy man.

The reason I know all this is that I was very much involved with it at the time.

Mike

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Mike Lewis (Edinburgh, Scotland)

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[Steve Meyerson]

Thanks, Mike, for the history and the correction.

Regarding FoxBase, I'm sure you also remember its genesis was a project assigned by Dave Fulton to his graduate class to develop a program to emulate dBase (I wasn't sure which version).

As I recall, dBaseII was developed in assembly language by a single programmer, Wayne Ratliff.

Also, dBase III was developed by Ashton Tate in 2 cities (Chicago & San Francisco) with 130 programmers (too many cooks?). FoxBase x.x outsold it and was developed by 6 programmers with far less bugs.

AT hired a marketing guy CEO. He told his investors the poor performance was due to an overstocked inventory (guess why it remained overstocked). AT eventually went out of business.

Please feel free to correct the details.

Steve

 

[Mike Lewis]

Steve, yes those details are mainly correct. I knew about Dave Fulton's graduate class project, but I had forgotten that I knew (if you see what I mean). Thanks for the reminder.

You're right about Wayne Ratfliff. He developed the first version of his program on an 8-bit home-brew computer with 64K memory (note K, not M or G), which was a major constraint of course. Actually, the real problem was not the memory but the lack of an addressable cursor on the terminal. The program could only receive input and display output one line at a time, like a teletype. When George Tate came on the scene, the first thing he did was to insist that Ratliffe introduce the ability to write to anywhere on the screen. Hence the famous @ / SAY command.

Tate was not a programmer. He was running a company that sold discount software off the shelf. He agreed to market Ratliffe's program. One of his salesmen suggested the name, dBASE II. dBASE had a nice technical ring to it, and the II suggested it was an improvement on some earlier product.

I didn't know that Ashton-Tate had 130 programmers in two cities, although I can believe it. I vaguely remember the story about the marketing CEO and the over-stocked inventory. I've been trying to remember the name of the CEO. I remember a marketing guy called Hal Lashlee, but I think he had left the scene by then. There was also Ed Esber, but I never had any dealings with him and am not sure of his role.

George Tate passed away quite young, officially of a heart attack, but there were rumours of drugs being involved. I don't know what happened to Wayne Ratliffe.

Apologies to other forum members for these ramblings, and especially to Arthur Lewis (no relation) for drifting his thread.
I could probably dig up more remnants from my memory - at risk of boring you all.

Mike

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Mike Lewis (Edinburgh, Scotland)

Visual FoxPro articles, tips and downloads

 

[Gerrit Broekhuis]

Hi,

If you want to read more about the history of Foxpro, try to find the (e)book “FoxTales: Behind the Scenes at Fox Software” by Kerry Nietz. He was one of the Foxpro developers. It’s not a technical book, it’s more a novel about his work for Foxpro.

I found a copy of this book somewhere on the world wide web. It’s great to read about the early days of Foxpro.

Regards, Gerrit

 

[Mike Lewis]

Thanks for that, Gerrit. I see the book is available at Amazon, both as a Kindle book and a paperback.

Mike

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Mike Lewis (Edinburgh, Scotland)

Visual FoxPro articles, tips and downloads

 

[Chris Miller]

The reason I know all this is that I was very much involved with it at the time.

How exactly, out of personal interest as "fan" of Fox Software or actually part of it?

Chriss

 

[vernpace]

Adding to the history of dBase: Jeb Long, Perry Lawrence, Nelson Tso, Steve Crivello, and a couple of other guys wrote dBase III+ in LaCresenta, Ca. Wayne Ratliff was the project manager.

Jeb came from JPL (Jet Propulsion Laboratory) where he wrote JPLDIS which Wayne morphed into Vulcan which later became dBase II when George Tate hired him. dBase III+ was a great success. dBase IV was not. Ashton-Tate hired a bunch of MBAs and an army of programmers all of whom screwed it up. How do I know this? I hired Jeb, Perry, Nelson, and Steve for a two year project after Ashton-Tate was sold to Borland in 1992. They had stories...

 

[Mike Lewis]

How exactly, out of personal interest as "fan" of Fox Software or actually part of it?

Chris, I can't really answer that question in a public forum because it involved work I did for clients (albeit ones that no longer exist). If you care to contact me privately, I can tell you more.

Vernspace: Interesting insights. Those names you mentioned - Jeb Long, Perry Lawrence, Nelson Tso, Steve Crivello - all ring a vague bell in my memory. Good to learn more.

Also post-Ashton Tate, I think Wayne Ratliffe was involved in something called Emerald Bay. It was some sort of simple client-server database. I remember reading the manuals, but I never heard anything further about it.

Mike

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Mike Lewis (Edinburgh, Scotland)

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