how long

[luv2ski]

How long do you think you will be employed when most companys look at the 45-55 yr old person making big bucks and then look at the resume of the 20 yr old looking for littles bucks and find a reason to let the older person go...we will all be bitching then.. as long as the country is bottom line driven we are all screwed ..oh forgot walmart will hire us to greet at the front door.

Pat Guido
NEXTIRAONE
Pat.guido@nextiraone.com

Formerly Nextira, formerly Williams Communications, formerly Wiltel, formerly Nortel networks, formerly Northern Telecom, formerly, Nynex meridian systems formerly Northern Telecom.

 

[dyarwood]

Being 22 and coming into the world of IT from just graduating last year I have found it quite hard to get jobs. I have found that it is the lack of commercial experience which is a problem. Even when jobs are advertised at £15K a year.

However, I do conceed the point that after a few years experience jobs may be easier for a mid 20s person than someone in their 40s, especially as I grew up learning MS Office and other packages like that. With the more exposure younger people get to computers the faster they will be able to learn. They will also be learning more often than not, the up to date versions from a fresh.

The thing that has the 'Big Bucks' I would think would be consultancy. To get these salaries you will need to know packages inside and out. This would probably give the experienced professional an advantage.

 

[johnherman]

Well, luv2ski, your age/salary reasoning is not limited to the IT field. My father was a buyer for a major retail chain and was victim of that very concept about 20 years ago. In fact, we are probably safer in IT because of the way technology advances. I know several of my peers who know nothing but COBOL, but will continue to have jobs until they retire because of the abundance of old code and the refusal of colleges and universities to teach anything that's not perceived to be cutting edge. Their salaries, or rates, however, do not increase as fast as the more modern technologies.

Sometimes the grass is greener on the other side because there is more manure there - original.

 

[jsteph]

I think older folks (I guess I could be included in that group), have other assets that may be intangible but valuable.

Tare many intangibles, but I'll just talk about one here: Dependability. While I feel that I'm in the upper percentile of my skill set, I'm over 40, and there are many in their 20's who know as much or more than I do--on paper. Yet my employer knows that at 6:00 AM, when our other offices elswhere in the country are open and have a problem or need something, I'm at my desk working, and maybe the 20-something is sleeping off a night of carousing. Not to stereotype 20-somethings as all-party-all-the-time, but the point is that as a general rule, a 40-year old is more dependable and responsible than a 20-year odl.

Now, any young person can *say* he's responsible and dependable, but employers know that whatever a job applicant says is subject to scrutiny, and it's a simple fact that someone with a wife and 3 kids to support is going to stay on Friday night to get a rush job done and not try to skate out the door. Whereas someone with only an apartment rent to worry about simply has less core motivation. This is a generalization, to be sure, but employers do consider these and the multitude of other intangibles, and they can prove to be worth a huge difference in salary.
--jsteph

 

[johnherman]

Agree with jsteph regarding (generally speaking) better soft skills, dependability, and just plain common sense, both streetwise and businesswise for the older workers. I think that's what they mean by "experience". Also, I believe that the more jobs you have held, especially in different companies, adds to the experience since you are exposed to different management styles and different business objectives and climates. With that said, I would, however, beware of the person who switches jobs annually (more frequently?) other than for contract work. Might indicate a lack of loyalty.

Sometimes the grass is greener on the other side because there is more manure there - original.

 

[dilettante]

As I look back I see that most of my real structural career advancement actually occurred before I was 30. The die was pretty much cast by 35, since that point a lot has changed but not in any meaningful way: not level within the hierarchy nor income.

What I have noticed about the last 10 to 13 years is that the level of responsibility has increased dramatically. Some of this may simply be due to the continuing squeeze for "worker productivity." Some of it has more to due with an accumulated reputation for being able to go into a situation and get it moving in a straight line to the goal. The latter is probably just the advantage of a broader perspective now (e.g. experience) and the good fortune of having a positive track record.

But when you consider compensation itself, the only growth I've seen here since about 35 has been due to striking out to handle numerous independent jobs. Consulting and contracting are a greater challenege now though, and I can't see how I could ever make it going full time. In the past 4 years these sorts of jobs have become much harder to get, mostly because I find a lot of low-fee competition out there but also because money is tighter in general.

I finally met one guy who was consistently undercutting me by 50% to 70% (!) on bids for work. I was brought in to help him finish off a "stuck" project. Turns out, he's single, 24, and living in a free apartment in Mom's basement. Nice clothes, nice car, and he's a nice guy. I feel sorry for him, but at the same time I sure can't compete with his low overhead.

I also don't enjoy how unraveling his messes makes me look bad too. "Finish up" jobs are always really short-term (high client expectations) but take a LOT of effort, resulting in unbilled hours (or effectively a reduction in my rate to avoid looking really bad). I think he'd be able to to handle lots of things well if he wasn't making architectural choices. It just seems like a case of having the skills, being willing, but not having broad enough experience to choose the right tool for the job.

I'd never be able to partner with him at this stage. I admit I don't understand fashion period, let alone 20-something fashion. Those zoot suits would have me giggling all the time. Are baggy dress pants and pinstripe browns really business attire now? The guy looks like Johnny Depp playing a gangster in a high school play. But what do I know, one lady CIO actually said "he smells nice" so I must be missing something. ;-)

 

[theoxyde]

Are baggy dress pants and pinstripe browns really business attire now? The guy looks like Johnny Depp playing a gangster in a high school play. But what do I know, one lady CIO actually said "he smells nice" so I must be missing something.

I can handle the Johnny Depp reference... but don't disrespect my pants.

Actually, no, that is not appropriate business attire, and while I like wearing such comfortable duds... they don't project the professional image that most would want to convey. I learned a few years ago that if you want people to quit treating you like a kid, first you need to quit dressing like one.

 

[dilettante]

Well, I didn't mean to suggest that the "clothes makes the man" necessarily. It was more of a humorous (I hope) side note (though true).

For all I know I'm just stuck in a rut myself. In the early 80s I had a boss with a taste for pastel polyester outfits. At least then I had an inkling that I wasn't the one who was "off" a little, now I'm not as sure.

I have to admit the faux gangster look beats the heck out of a nehru jacket any day for that matter.

 

[chiph]

> I have to admit the faux gangster look beats the heck out of a nehru jacket any day for that matter. <

Unless your boss is named &quot;Dr. Evil&quot;. ;-)
Then, for self-preservation purposes, it looks pretty darn cool.

Age discrimination has always been a problem in the computer industry. My first boss's boss had to file suit against the company for wrongful termination in order to get his severence pay (the company was known for not having any retirees, and he was 58, getting a little too close for comfort for them).

My plan to combat it is to say &quot;Doesn't matter what I want, what does the job pay?&quot; when asked at an interview. Which then gives me the option to take it, or walk away. In addition, I'm doing my best to not have &quot;Affluenza&quot;, and live a low-cost lifestyle. Which so far has done wonders for my retirement account.

Chip H.


If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[Onyxpurr]

Okay, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here.

What about the 20 something's that are dependable, work hard, and have the experience who are the first to be laid off because the company is too afraid to touch the guy with seniority and has a poor work ethic?

Age discrimination is bad on either side of the coin.

I'm a professional, 20-something who gets discriminated against all the time because of stereo-types. Just because I don't own a house or have kids doesn't make me less of a hard worker. If anything, I was always the only person in my company working until 9 at night to finish a project because everyone else had families to go home to.

It really just comes down to this, no matter who you are, someone is always going to want to fit you into a category (stereotype) that they can classify and make decisions about you on face value alone. It's the people who look at my resume, experience, and references that I really respect. (Not that I think anyone here disagrees, just reiterating.)

 

[theoxyde]

Or those that don't get hired at all because another &quot;white 20-something male&quot; can't get past screening by the company's HR Diversity-Führer... maybe I should have worn my baggy pants.

 

[dyarwood]

This is my situation.

I live with my girlfriend, and I have recently graduated with a masters degree in Maths. I have done a lot of C++ programming and know MSOffice very well. Also have done VBA programming and taught myself SQL and currently learning (for my own benifit) SQL Server 2000. I have done courses in Office Pro and MS Project to expert level. I have also done a bit of JavaScript and have started writing my own web pages. I've created programs to dynamically create database tables and analyse data.

I am currently looking for jobs as my current contract is coming to an end. My problem is even with all these skills I get rejected because I don't get a tick in the box next to work experience.

I am taking further courses because I would like something to give me the edge but it seems unless you have WORK experience your stuck.

 

[infinitelo]

from reading the posts here it seems that the guys in there 30's have the edge. the really choice ones will have 10 years experiance, and kept there skills up to date.
in checking job ads it seems a lot of companies are combining hardware and software support with programming. a model that in common here in oklahoma. (smaller companies and a lot less demand for high tech skills)
didnt realize how hold 40 was till i was looking for a job last year.

if it is to be it's up to me

 

[Onyxpurr]

I would have to agree with you infinitelo.

I've been looking around at the job ads, and it seems you can only get a job if you have a lot of experience in 8 programs that are special the company.

I would have to extend my education into specialized programs just to get the knowledge alone because my school didn't cover it.

I think I will probably end up in either 3 of the following solutions: consulting, teaching, or if I'm lucky have the option to stay at the company I'm currently with.

What ever happened to specialization? Would you ever ask a welder to only apply if he knows the pipe trade, CADD, and Accounting?

 

[SQLSister]

dyarwood, some suggestions to help you out. YOu might consider getting some professional experience through an internship (if you are still in school) or through some volunteer work. Often small companies or non-profit organizations can't afford to pay someone to develop for them. Doing it as a volunteer to get work experience can help your resume.

Next look at your overall presentation. Have someone who has done hiring look at your resume and give suggestions, talk to a recruiter. You may not be presenting yourself very professionally. I say this because the start of your tale of woe was that you are living with your girlfriend, information which is irrelevant in the context of getting a job. Why should we care about that or why should an employer care?

If you have work samples, you might consider showing those to prospective employers or including small samples in what you send to apply for the jobs.

Also, you don't appear to have a lot of focus in terms of what kind of job you want. Employers can often tell that from the materials you send them and they aren't usually impressed by it. They don't care that you need a job to pay the bills, it isn't their problem. They want someone who can do the job they have and who has demonstatred the ability to do the job already so the person is less of a risk to hire.

Good luck to you.

My email is in my profile, you can email me your resume if you want adice from someone who has looked at hundreds of resumes over the years.

 

[theoxyde]

&quot;Doing it as a volunteer to get work experience can help your resume. &quot;

She's right! I worked volunteer for a non-profit during my entire college education. That way, once I graduated, I was able to claim 4+ years of experience, even though I probably didn't do but a year's worth of work. The experience and the awesome references from the non-profit landed me my first (and last) corporate job.

Put your skills to work, even if you are still looking for a job.