How language Confuses me - Example 1 2

[kwbMitel]

The following was posted in a puzzle forum. I questioned the meaning of one of the elements below and I was told the meaning is perfectly clear.

You are writing a piece of software that must fill an array. You are passed a pointer into the array somewhere, but you don't know where. The ends of the array are marked by dummy values that you will recognise when you meet them.

You can therefore fill the array by dealing with successive elements in it, spreading out from where you are. Sometimes you may wish to spread backwards, sometimes forwards, but you will always have to spread one element at once, because if you jump, you may jump over the end.

It is the part near the end after the but that I have difficulty with. I am told that the word always is all that matters. Additionally I am told that the part after the word because is declaritive.

My interpretation is that the part after the word "Because" is not true 100% of the time making it conditional. Once 1 endpoint is known, both are known. It is no longer true once the endpoints are known that you may jump over them. Once the statement is no longer true I consider all elements in it to be no longer true including the word always

I am not trying to find out if I'm right or wrong. My point is that I clearly see my interpretation and others do not. Is my interpretation so far out there that I am the only one who can see it that way or is there sufficient backing of my interpretation to warrant questioning the meaning?

The responses I'm looking for are more like:
- I would question the meaning because....
- I would not question the meaning because ...

*******************************************************
Occam's Razor - All things being equal, the simplest solution is the right one.

 

[Turkbear]

Hi,
I would not question the meaning since your statement:

Once 1 endpoint is known, both are known

is not supported by the facts since the dummy values may be different at each end and,given that,a jump over one or the other ( the unknown one) is entirely possible.



To Paraphrase:"The Help you get is proportional to the Help you give.."

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> Additionally I am told that the part after the word because is declarative.
That's not what I said. I said nothing specific about the part after the word because. What I said was this:

That statement, "you will always have to spread one element at once, because if you jump, you may jump over the end." is not, never has been, nor ever will be, a conditional statement. It is a declarative statement.

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[kwbMitel]

Turkbear, The size of the array is known. I seem to have missed that point when I copied the puzzle. My appologies.
Does adding the following change your opinion?

Here is the remainder I missed

If the array is 8 elements long (plus its two dummy end values which you can ignore), in how many different orders could the array be filled (given all possible starting points and all possible sequences of filling the array in any combination of forward and backward steps)?

I believe that once one end point is known the other can be determined. The value of the other endpoint is unnecessary.

@ CajunCenturion, it would probably have been best if I did not include my understanding of what I was previously told. I could have left that part out without affecting my question in the slightest. Unfortunately, it is there and hopefully everyone can read your correction.

*******************************************************
Occam's Razor - All things being equal, the simplest solution is the right one.

 

[strongm]

The problem stipulates the rules. The movement rules are such because the postulated software does not know the length of the array passed to it; trhe specifications don't allow for that. The rules are clear. You can pass a 8 element array to it BUT IT DOES NOT KNOW THAT, so you have to follow the rules even though you know that you are dealing with an 8 element array.

You are applying outside knowledge that the software does not have to try and find a shortcut that the software cannot take.

 

[mintjulep]

because if you jump, you may jump over the end."

This last part of the sentence attempts to clarify the rules, but obviously fails - at least in your case.

It adds no new information or rules for the puzzle, and is not necessary.

 

[kwbMitel]

Strongm - In the other post where I made this query the original poster made the clarification that is central to your point. I must know the dimensions of the array to make the calculation but I do not know the dimensions when passed the pointer. This makes complete sense to me but I did not get that impression from the original wording. This now appears the be the key point, and is completely different from what I believed to be the key point.

I can definitely see that the original wording can be interpreted that way. I also see that my misinterpretation might be easy to make as well.

So may I ask, is it easy to misinterpret that the size is known when passed the pointer?

Mintjulep - Thanks for the feedback. I've been called difficult and I'm trying to understand why. I agree the last part is unnecessary. With Strongm's insights I now see it makes no difference but when I thought the array was of a known size, it did make a difference (at least to me anyway). I don't want to be thought of as difficult but I want to participate. Maybe the issue is in how I ask the questions, I don't know. This is why I'm asking for help.

*******************************************************
Occam's Razor - All things being equal, the simplest solution is the right one.

 

[CajunCenturion]

You will always have to spread one element at once, because if you jump, you may jump over the end.

Let's look at the grammatical construction of the sentence and the role of 'because'.

Because is a subordinating conjunction. A Subordinating conjunction introduces a subordinate clause and provides a link to the independent clause of the sentence. The independent clause is "You will always have to spread one element at once", and the subordinate clause is "because if you jump, you may jump over the end." It's the independent clause that dictates the meaning of the sentence, not the subordinate clause.

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[strongm]

>I also see that my misinterpretation might be easy to make as well

It isn't. It takes a deliberate ... erm ... effort to reach your interpretation.

> is it easy to misinterpret that the size is known when passed the pointer?

No. At no point is there even a vague inference that the size is known.

 

[kwbMitel]

CajunCenturion: The key point seems to have shifted focus from what I thought it was. As much as I appreciate your effort to explain the intricacies of the meaning of the sentence, it now appears my main point of confusion centers on whether the array size is known or not when passed the pointer.

If the array size is not known, then my questions appear meaningless.

If the array size is known, then the sentence appears to have a conditional element. (at least to me)

Turkbear rightly disagreed with me earlier when I had not presented the sentence that indicates the array size. Strongm still disagrees with me even with the array size sentence.

When reading the puzzle, I still find it hard to even define how the last sentence is separated from the rest. How I am supposed to automatically know that the array size is of a given size but this is not known when you start the puzzle. It tells me that it is the former but the latter has to be assumed in my opinion.

Strongm, you indicate that from your perspective it seems to take some effort on my part to get to my interpretation. This is not the case. I did not see the other, ever. Usually my issues with language is that I see additional interpretations that other do not (rightly or wrongly). This case appears to be one were I completely missed the majority interpretation. This possibility had not occured to me and did not factor into my self checking before I asked the questions. If nothing else, this realization has made posting this question worthwhile.

*******************************************************
Occam's Razor - All things being equal, the simplest solution is the right one.

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> The key point seems to have shifted focus from what I thought it was. As much as I appreciate your effort to explain the intricacies of the meaning of the sentence, it now appears my main point of confusion centers on whether the array size is known or not when passed the pointer.
I think the focus is still very much on language and semantics.

==> If the array size is known, then the sentence appears to have a conditional element. (at least to me)
The array size, whether known or unknown, has no bearing on the structure, grammar, or semantics of the sentence. Before you know the size of the array, the sentence has an independent clause and a subordinate clause. The independent clause dictates the meaning, not the subordinate clause. After you know the size of the array, the sentence has the same structure, grammar, and semantics. It still has an independent clause and a subordinate clause, and the independent clause still controls the meaning.

I understand that you believe the semantics of what was said changes after you learn the size of the array, but that's not the case. Your additional knowledge doesn't change what someone else said, or what they meant.

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[kwbMitel]

CC - I'm not sure your analysis is going to help me short term. Your argument being that if all of the language rules are applied, the answer is obvious. #1, I obviously do not know all the rules. #2 I pretty sure that even if I did, I would still be subject to my sideways thinking issues.

Strongm - Your posts revealed an element that had not occured to me. I will be looking for this element in the future and we'll see if it helps. Basically, is there information being provided by the puzzler for the purpose of solving the puzzle that is "not known" otherwise.

*******************************************************
Occam's Razor - All things being equal, the simplest solution is the right one.

 

[CajunCenturion]

@kwbMitel - I appreciate that, but my analysis is not intended to help you in either the short term or the long term. It is simply that, an analysis of what was said and what it means based based on standard rules of English. What you do with that information is entirely up to you. Should you choose to ignore what I've said and continue on your merry way, then so be it. Should you choose to try to gain some benefit from it, then more power to you.


--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[kwbMitel]

CC - I'm sure you can appreciate that just taking your analysis at face value is insufficient proof of it's validity. I'm willing to grant you the likelyhood of its accuracy but not the certainty. You've met my learning curve monster before so try and appreciate the monumental task you ask of me. I've taken what you've said and I will try and apply what I know of it to future communications but as they say "Rome wasn't built in a day"

*******************************************************
Occam's Razor - All things being equal, the simplest solution is the right one.

 

[CajunCenturion]

@kwbMitel - Whether you take it face value or not is entirely up to you. Whether you believe it or not is entirely up to you. Whether you choose to verify it be other means is entirely up to you. It makes no difference to me either way. It's totally up to you.

==> You've met my learning curve monster before so try and appreciate the monumental task you ask of me.
Don't assume facts not in evidence. If there was any doubt, let's clear it up. I ask absolutely nothing of you. I expect nothing from you.

If anything matters at all, it's only what you ask of yourself.

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[kwbMitel]

CC - Maybe another misunderstanding in the making but as you say it really doesn't matter. Your earlier words although strickly speaking did not ask me to do anything, they did imply a bias as to what you considered to correct course of action. I took the implication and bias to be someone nudging me in the right direction. So agreed, you did not ask anything of me. I don't think I'm wrong about what you actually were doing but as you say "It doesn't matter".

*******************************************************
Occam's Razor - All things being equal, the simplest solution is the right one.

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> strickly speaking did not ask me to do anything
That correct. I did not.

==> they did imply a bias
Nope, no implication and no bias. If you saw a bias, then it came from within you.

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[kwbMitel]

We could go back and forth all day on this but let me share the source of my impression of your bias.

Should you choose to ignore what I've said and continue on your merry way, then so be it. Should you choose to try to gain some benefit from it, then more power to you.

Specifically "Then so be it" vs. "Then more power to you"

When one part has more value (More power) than another then there is bias. Whether you intended it as such or not is beside the point.

*******************************************************
Occam's Razor - All things being equal, the simplest solution is the right one.