How do you measure your skills? 1

[powahusr]

How do you measure your skill level or get a baseline in a giving field whether it is Client/Server Programmer, Systems/Network Administrator, or a Software Quality Assurance Engineer?

Are their industry standards, maybe a web site you can go to and compare your skill set against predetermined criteria so you can get an idea of where you stand? I know certifications are a testament, however they do not always reflect real world experience. So much more is to be learned after a certificate is earned.

I only want to know, because when I am asked what my skill level is with a particular technology, I would like to be able to give an accurate answer.

Thanks in advance.

 

[jsteph]

Good question. It's one thing for one to know--within one's self--where one stands in the pack. It's yet another to convince someone else, ie. the interviewer, of that standing.

In the past, I've given a free 1/2 day, or if things were slow, a full day of consulting time to a prospective client so they can get at least a general idea of what I can do. True, some things just can't be demonstrated in a day, but it's a start. I don't know how one would would work that out for a full-time employment interview, though.

As you said, certs (and degrees, for that matte) are no measure of skill, and we all know a resume is no accurate measurment either.
jsteph

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

I would argue that degrees and certificates are an indication of skill. The important point is what degree from where or what certification you've got.

Some certifications are excellent indicators of base line ability. I'll go for one of the better certs as an example. Cisco, If you pass these certifications then employeers are assured you have a basic level of knowledge. Not only this but you've been trained/studied for a wider range of issues then one normally shows up in any one typical job.

Let me expand on that. While teaching development courses my students often asked why certian topics where included in the certification tests. I constantly had to explain the certifications where designed to assure a broad range of subjects so if you where certified an employeer could expect to throw you into situations that didn't just fall under the type of work you where doing currently.

Going after a degree or certification doesn't mean you are better at something then someone that doesn't have the degree/cert but it is an indicator of someones concern for their professional development.

I find that employeers generally look at my work history more then anything. I don't have a degree and infact the only uni I've done was in accounting. I do have certifications and that looks nice. By far the most important thing I have on my side is my communications skills.

All this said I'm sure I wouldn't even get to the interview portion if I didn't have some of the certifications I have.

As far as you comparing yourself to others.....look back at when you've worked with others. Think about what they could and could not do compaired to you. If you can constistantly do something better then other people well...then you are better at that area.

The other thing to note is that certifications might not mean much as a piece of paper because most just indicate that you passed but remember that most test let you know your score and even break down scores in different areas giving you a good indication on how you compair to others. In the end they really don't hurt to take.



Hope I've been helpful,
Wayne Francis

If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[RiverGuy]

I've seen an author of one book at least have his Brainbench.com percentile listed in the "about author" section.

 

[lespaul]

That Brainbench.com site is pretty cool!



Leslie

 

[edfair]

SemperFi, I disagree. You can have the skills without the certs. And most certs test for booklearning, not the real world. Then you get into the motives of the certifying body.

One instructor where I taught for a while admitted that he was babysitting his training class. He couldn't pass the course he was teaching (my judgement) and surely couldn't make the class relevant for his students.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

edfair - I never said you cann't have skills without certification. Much of the certification I've gotten was not doable just by book learning. Take Microsoft Certification as a low example. Even many of their exams are not meant to take the MOC then go straight to the test.

I agree that there are many certs that all you have to do is look in a book but sorry but booklearning is part of real world learning.

Agian what I said is

Some certifications are excellent indicators of base line ability

Given the similiar CV/Resume if you have to drop someone you'll find most people will drop the one without certification. Many positions you'll find have a cap on the number of people they will do personal interviews with. Around where I am it seems the current popular number is 3.

That said lets look into this situation. Often "Real World" situations come from you learning from a mentor. If that mentor only knows 1 way to solve a problem then is that better then "Book Knowledge" that may have described 3-4 methods for solving the same problem.

The mentality that book knowledge is not useful is rediculious. Would you rather have a mechanic that can read manuals and specs fix your car or joe from down the street that just plays it by ear?

Believe me, my career is more "thrown into the fire" then sit down and read a book but the fact is when I get thrown into the fire I still use books as one of my resources.

The original poster asked how he/she could benchmark themselves agianst others. Well that involves some form of metrics and tests are one way you can benchmark yourself.

Hope I've been helpful,
Wayne Francis

If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[MakeItSo]

Would you rather have a mechanic that can read manuals and specs fix your car or joe from down the street that just plays it by ear?

Book knowledge and "playing by the ear" doesn't necessarily exclude each other.. ;-)
And I guess, that's what it boils down to:
You can have tons of books and know them all by heart - this doesn't have to include that you can also apply them.
You can also be an expert programmer who can dictate the entire code by heart given a specific problem. This doesn't necessarily mean that you're a good problem solver.

Skill does not equal knowledge. I think it equals the application of knowledge, which is not the same.
The skills of "Joe from down the street" can in fact be higher than those of a professor - although the latter's knowledge is a lot higher.

What do you think?

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

Book knowledge and "playing by the ear" doesn't necessarily exclude each other

Neither does book knowledge and skill

But if you don't have the book knowledge of somethings your natural skill isn't going to be much good.

What I meant by my anology is that unless joe knows the specs for your car then your car will probably be stuffed on being returned to you.

Concepts are great but you still have to learn concepts from some place.

I agree somoene with book knowledge might be able to dictate what the proper amount of torque you need to apply to a bolt on a part of an engine might not actually be able to do it but if Joe just guesses because he's never learnt it or assumes that it should be the same as some other engine he was taught on then you up $#!^ creek.

Even with cooks that make things by taste you have to realise that most chefs didn't get that way out of the blue. They did alot of trial and error (learned skill) and alot of cooking with recipies (book knowledge).

Point the best approach is a mixture of the 2. Book knowledge is a good way to save time. When I want to learn about the orbits of the planets I don't look through my telescope over the course of many years and try to figure the orbits by plotting things out. I goto a book and charts because that knowledge has already been done by others and I can read it. I then apply that book knowledge when I want to look at saturn.

Agian this isn't about what the best way to learn is (from other people, trial and error, or from books (the first and the last are pretty much the same) but how do we measure how good you are at something.

Well certifications are one way. You can look at this as only certifications that are writen but some certifications are practicle application.

There are some exceptions to this. Some people just know things like music and don't have to learn to be good musicians....but then these same people don't have to do trial and error much of the time.

I'm not a savant personally so I'll use books to learn if I can.

Hope I've been helpful,
Wayne Francis

If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[TheRambler]

Now this is getting interesting.
I say some people don't read books, they write them.

Have you heard of John Harrison, the clock designer?
There was no way he could have learned what he did by reading books, because they were not written yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harrison

"he was a man of many skills", but not me, I must read books to learn.

 

[TheRambler]

Here is another example, Benoit Mandelbrot.

http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Mandelbrot.html

"The war, the constant threat of poverty and the need to survive kept him away from school and college and despite what he recognises as 'marvellous' secondary school teachers he was largely self taught."

"Mandelbrot now attributed much of his success to this unconventional education. It allowed him to think in ways that might be hard for someone who, through a conventional education, is strongly encouraged to think in standard ways."

You see, sometimes it is better not to get an "education", and precisely that people make the difference. But not me, I am a follower.

 

[Dimandja]

Yes, TheRambler, conventional education can be stifling at times. To its credit it will save you time by showing what is already known; but, by doing so it locks you up in a mindset you may have trouble getting out of. How many times have you heard: "that's the way we always did it"?

Although I grew up surrounded and nurtured by academia, I find it refreshing to seek out unconventional ways to address problems. Certificate and degrees are good, but they only tell the same old story: "you know what we know": hardly an advertisement for exceptional skills.

Dimandja

 

[MakeItSo]

Right, but

"...after 14 years of failures..."

With some more "book knowledge" he might have gotten away with a lot less testing time required.
So, do not consider reading books to learn a "must", consider it a "can".
Noone has to re-invent the wheel. Everybody can open a book and read how it shall be done...

Although "imagination is more important than knowledge (Einstein)", imgaination without knowledge may often go into the wrong direction.

Back to the original question of this thread:
I think, it is less important how much you know, since all knowledge and skills you already posses has been acquired by tasks, which are often job-specific. In a new job, you might often have to start over again.
It is more importan, what you dare to learn or how much confidence you have in yourself.

 

[SGTRawlins]

After working for a few years within the IT industry along side some incredibly "qualified" figures I must say that accreditations and certifications do not seem to represent a good working knowledge in a practical IT environment.

This forum title says it all, IT in the workplace involves large amounts of Ethical and Managerial decisions, I do believe that these cannot be learnt from a book, the ability to run an effective IT Dept lies in experience and a natural flare for empathy of staff and colleagues.

The introduction of the "C" into "ICT" not only denotes the expansion of technical communications systems but the personal face to face relationships that are a necessity in a working environment.

It will no doubt stay as ICT now until some "qualified" book worm develops a computer system that will make the tea for us. (ICTMT - Information Communication Tea Making Technology).

However I feel this may be taking the pee! Well, what about if a "qualified" book worm developed a system that could do that for us. (ICTMPTT - Information Communication Tea Making Pee Taking Technology).

That'll be the day.

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

Rambler - I appreciate what you are saying but honestly you can't take exceptional people from history and say "See you don't need to learn from others" I addressed these types of people. People with innate abilities and knowledge are what we refer to as savants. You see them in areas like music and math and other occupations but they are far from the norm.

Dimandja - I completely agree. We must learn to think outside the square. Believe it or not I learnt this skill while in the USMC. People often think Marines are mindless drones obeying orders but we are taught to make command decisions when need and we are taught to try to get a bigger picture before making those decisions.

SGTRawlins - This forum is a prime example that you can learn ethical and managerial skills. I hope we've all, at some point atleast, been reading a thread and came across a post that put things in a light we didn't think of.

Really there is only 2 ways to learn something. From others or from yourself. From others covers everything from books to lectures to demos to chit chat. Some people take in information best by reading, others like pictures, others like to hear things, and others like hands on. Most of us do best with some combinations of these.

I've yet to see anyone put up another answer how to benchmark yourself agianst others besides some type of test.
Well I have .... I said look at others around you and compair things you can do to how they would do them and try to make a unbiased decision who's solution would be better. And if you are really good and their methods are better then adopt them.

I'll always have something to learn from others because as much as I try I'll never be able to think of all possibilities.


Hope I've been helpful,
Wayne Francis

If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[johnwm]

Isaac Newton, one of the world's greatest thinkers, once said (paraphrased) 'I can only see further because I stand on the shoulders of giants'.

He recognised that despite his immense genius, he was building on existing knowledge. Book learning is a necessary foundation for moving knowledge forward (unless you want to re-invent the wheel at every level)

________________________________________________________________
If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

'If we're supposed to work in Hex, why have we only got A fingers?'

 

[CajunCenturion]

either re-invent the wheel or follow in the footsteps of Claudius Ptolemy.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Dimandja]

There's nothing wrong with book knowledge - I benefitted from it. But, you should keep a nimble mind is all.

Dimandja

 

[edfair]

SemperFi,
Maybe the MC has changed, but I can only reflect my experience. On drill weekends I was the village idiot E3 who was finally allowed to trace wiring in aircraft to fix radios, while during the week the regional command structure considered me the equivalent of a field grade officer while I traced wiring in their data processing machines.
It seems there was a disconnect between headquarters and the field. I believe it was the inbreeding of the thought process by the command sargeants.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[lionelhill]

Mandelbrot read, and Harrison was a trained carpenter if I remember rightly. His grasshopper escapement owes a lot to a carpenter's understanding of friction and mechanics, and his early clocks were largely wooden.
Creative people don't tend to cut themselves off from others, terrified that their creativity might be stifled. Creative people are (nearly) always highly curious about what others have done, eagerly wanting to (mis)use new concepts in odd places. In this forum perhaps Good Old Babbage deserves a mention - now there was someone not afraid to learn from anyone, and yet hugely creative.