How come your cable is so expensive??? 8

[LkEErie]

So I get the "while you're here, my friend down the street needs a cabling quote." It's not bad, stubs in the ceiling, about 4000' in 23 runs, a WAP, and an existing patch panel with 27 available ports.

Oh, wait a minute, what's that plastic grid in the ceiling and why can I see to the deck above? Half the job was cabled with PVC, but I can't do that. Well the customer called the fire department and they said he could use PVC. O.K. I still can't do that. Long story short, he chose the vendor that used PVC.

The chances of a building inspector wandering into the building aren't great, but I'd rather lose the job than compromise my integrity and violate the code.

LkEErie who may drop the dime on the building owner.

 

[skip555]

The chances of a building inspector wandering into the building aren't great, but I'd rather lose the job than compromise my integrity and violate the code.

or worse yet wind up having to pull the cable out and re do it

as to "dropping the dime" I would probably grumble about it but let it go

 

[RyanEOD]

Ok I guess I will show what i don't know . .


What is cabled with PVC mean? They ran it through PVC pipe? Or is PVC cable a type?

 

[resorttech12]

PVC is a Riser rated cable, and is less expensive than plenum.

The difference is in the fire rating.

From what I remember, plenum is for any ceiling area that is open air return. Or something like that.

That kind of professional integrity/pride is noteworthy!

*
mk

 

[jet042]

Kudos to you, LkEErie, for doing the right thing.

I mostly agree with skip555 about grumbling and moving on, with a caveat: if the lack of plenum is a real risk to someone's health (i.e. this is a hospital) I'd make the call and not think twice.

 

[LkEErie]

Ouch, jet you were close. It's a medical building. I guess I just miseducated (if that's a word) the customer, and realize that there are people in this business who are hungry enough to do just about anything. The price of 4K feet of plenum is more than the labor bill to do it. Dragging 4 boxes of cable (2+2) around in truck stock is also a PITA, but using PVC as pull strings is worse.

Anyway, I took Skip's advice. I grumbled and moved on.

LkEErie

 

[brianinms]

I have never understood the whole plenum versus pvc cable debate. I mean if you are concerned about the smoke it puts off if its on fire that is trivial to the amount of smoke everything else in the building is putting off.

 

[Deweyhumbolt]

My understanding is the PVC sheath is flammable and gives off noxious fumes. If allowed to do so, in a Plenum enviroment. Which means the return-air is in the cieling, then noxious fumes get pumped right through the A/C system. You can probably guess how that ends.

Adversity is Opportunity

 

[brianinms]

Well that makes sense, but how often does cable burn and the rest of the building isnt on fire?

 

[DallasBPF]

Think of it this way... if you have a fire in a small section of a building on one side and the fumes from the PVC get in the duct work and travel to the other side of the building... It has the ability to harm someone, and to take it up one more notch.. what if someone on the other side was pregnant and there were complications with the birth later on...

You putting in PVC in a Plenum rated area are liable...

Plus it is code, if you are going to do the job, do it the right way the first time!

Kudos LkEErie for doing the right thing!

------------------------------------
Dallas, Texas
Telecommunications Tech
CCVP, CCNA, Net+

CCNP in the works

 

[resorttech12]

That's not the point though.

Should something happen, say someone can't get out of the building,you are pumping that poison merrily through the building. Then, you might as well tell the FD not to run any stoplights, because anybody who is stuck in there is probably DOA. Plus that stuff could possibly harm that same fireman as they go barrelling into the building anyway.

In a perfect world, that wouldn't happen. BUT, they made the Fire and Health codes for a reason. THAT is why it matters. Lkeerie may not have the job, but at least he doesnt have to have that situation on his mind, OR liability.

If people don't want to do it right, they should have an electrician do it with speaker wire, wire nuts, and electrical tape.

(Finishes rant and goes the hell home . . . )

mk

 

[brianinms]

Gotcha. I was just curious.

 

[LkEErie]

Of course, in residential I always tell the customer that PVC vs. Plenum won't matter a bit, it's the nasty wall coverings that you have to worry about. I vaguely remember that some motel burned years ago and the crap they put on the walls killed people.

LkEErie, but the walls looked so beautiful

 

[brianinms]

Yeah, that was my point ... I would be more worried about the fumes coming off my tv or my couch than I would some cables in the walls.

 

[wires]

Plus that stuff could possibly harm that same fireman as they go barrelling into the building anyway"

I have not seen a fireman enter a building in YEARS without an air tank and mask. Maybe there are some small departments without breathing equipment but I have not seen them.

Anyway, backing away from a job like this is the best policy.

 

[SYQUEST]

I believe the issue with the cable rating is that the "space has to be rated as an air plenum" as part of the air return system or spaces that handles environmental air in order to require "plenum rated" or CMP / MPP type cables.

I have seen situations where that has not been the case, and because the owner said it was a "plenum" told the installer he had to use CMP cable and not CMR. So it would be best to verify with the AHJ if you are not sure. Some ceilings are very obvious that the space handles return air, but most of the ones I see in the Orange County area are not, and the air has its own return duct in each office.

If you are using conduit, you can pull whatever you want. For any further references see NEC article 800.

And kudos to LkEErie for sticking to his principals!

....JIM....

 

[resorttech12]

Maybe the fireman would be a remote possibility. But what about a citizen who tries to help? I'm sure a lot of us would try to help someone in that situation. It all goes back to the same thing: safety.

However, my rant was off topic. An issue like this is what makes the difference between good vendors and the bad ones. If he gets shady on the cable, what about other things? That TV mount he just installed; will it fall on someone's head in 3 months? Or the 50 pounds of cable he left on the ceiling tile?

Sometimes a vendor has a bad day, or a bad installer. Other times, it is all bad from the top down.

 

[mikeydidit]

Working in a hospital environment all I can say is, thanks for not half assing a job, and not putting in the correct cabling. Yeah you didn't get the job, but more importantly you stuck to your personal standards, and thats doing it right.

You would not believe the battles I have to fight here to get them to do it right. But if they involve me to help or to do it, then they had better have the funding, because I don't take corners either. EVERY cable we pull in is plenum. I may go through one area that PVC would be OK and go through the next that is not OK to use. So every pull regardless is plenum rated cable.

The deal is (especially in our environment) most people are not killed because of the fire. They are killed because of smoke inhalation. Smoke rises and floods the upper floors of buildings. Plenum has "less" smoke emitted when it catches on fire than PVC jacketed cable. Thats another reason they stay on us about sealing penetrations, through walls and risers.

A while back I posted something about training for my guys and having the fire marshal bring in a film and power point presentation. This is what was on his materials. It made my guys think about "what if" and reinforced why i am so hard on them when it comes to doing it right.

"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower (1890-1969), Inaugural Address, January 20, 1953

For the best response to a question, read faq690-6594

 

[jeffmoss26]

As far as I know, all cable in commercial buildings in the city of Cleveland must be plenum. How much that is actually enforced is another question...

jeff moss

 

[drunkphoneman]

In reply to mikeydidit, I use a pretty powerful training method for my new guys:

I take a small piece of plenum cable, (Outside please) set it on fire, blow it out and let them smell it. The reaction is normally: Eewww! but that's about it.

Now light a piece of PVC and take a VERY SMALL whiff. It chokes the hell out of you!

In Charlotte, we run plenum in the majority of applications. All high rises require it and medical facilities go without question.

The rule of thumb is: if you remove a ceiling tile and feel a breeze, you're in a plenum. If in doubt, look at the data cabling that was installed previously, normally it will be of the correct type.

In my home Network I wouldn't run anything other than plenum, but I'm thinking about my kids.