Home electrical problem

[KornGeek]

I realize this forum is more for cabling issues, but you guys seem to know a lot of electrical info as well. I'm a novice to doing home electrical work, but I'm familiar with basic concepts, safety rules, etc. and I've been doing some research on these issues.

I'm having a problem at home with an entire circuit not functioning. The circuit breaker never tripped, but has been toggled on and off several times. There are a couple of GFCI outlets on the circuit, but those did not trip.

I tried testing the wires (not just the outlets) leading into three different outlets on the circuit (including the outlet I believe to be first on the circuit), and there is no current. I replaced the circuit breaker, but there was still no current.

I tested the circuit breaker to the netural bus in the breaker box, and found current there, but still nothing elsewhere on the circuit. I tried briefly touching the black wire directly to the hot bus (I realize this was not a safe move, but I was working on a theory and had no other ideas on how to test it.), and the circuit still did not have power.

I currently (no pun intended) have two theories on what could be happening.

1) The white wire may have come loose in the breaker box. (Seems unlikely, but I did not previously check for this.)

2) There is a break in the black (hot) wire between the breaker box and the first outlet.

Are there any other possibilities I should investigate? Any thoughts on my theories?

We don't have the money right now to call out an electrician, so if I can't figure this out, we're going to have to live with a dead circuit for a while.

Thanks for any insight you might offer.

 

[EddieDuece]

Is there a light switch somewhere in the circuit? Is this a existing ciruit or something new you ran? Sometimes you will come across a existing circuit that has a switch leg on it for lighting or some other reason. If the switch is in the off position, then the circuit is dead. If it is in teh on position, then should work fine.

 

[mikeydidit]

Can you physically trace this circuit out? I mean put you hands on the cable and find the points that are spliced?

Odds are this is just stubbed up into the ceiling or attic space. From there it will be naked into some 4 square boxes with romex connectors. These should have a cover over them. This point is where they wire nut the wires together. You may have a loose wire nut feeding the outlets. One thing that may keep you from having a “shocking experience” is to go to Home Depot or local electrical supply house and pick up a little electrical tester. These are about $10.00 and either light up or make noise when they are close to electrical current. If you do find the point that is bad, turn off the power before working on it.

I know, most people won’t do that. But I was lit up by 277 a couple of times and I won’t work on anything anymore unless the power is off.


Be careful.

Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.
Thomas A. Edison

For the best response to a question, read faq690-6594

 

[EddieDuece]

No wonder you keep that qoute from Thomas Edison on your signature line mikey..........

 

[KornGeek]

Thanks for the replies.

EddieDuece,
This is an existing circuit. There are 3 light switches on the circuit, but all 3 are typically in the off position, and the circuit still functions. Testing has been done with each of them on, and still nothing works.


mikeydidit,
I can't physically trace it out. From the breaker box, the wires disappear into the walls of the house. In my mind, I've mapped out a few paths that seem likely to me. The outlets that I'm fairly certain are the first 3 on the circuit (although I'm not sure which would be 2nd and which would be 3rd) all test as no power coming in from the wires.

The outlets that are connected to the circuit are all on the ground floor, but the attic is above the second floor. It seems unlikely to me that they would have been run up to the attic and then back down, but I suppose it is a possibility.

The nearest outlet to the breaker box on this circuit is about 10 feet away from the breaker box on the other side of the same wall. After removing the cover plate, I tested the hot and neutral wires (also tested hot to ground, which should kill my theory about the neutral wire being disconnected from my breaker box) but found no current.

I have a very cheap voltage tester ($2 at Home Depot) that lights up to indicate power, but can't detect current through the insulation. I saw some voltage detectors that would probably work, but since I'm strongly leaning towards the theory of a broken wire between the breaker box and first outlet, I think I'm going to have to leave it until I can afford an electrician.

Then again, the voltage detector that works through the wire could help me determine if the failure is at any of the points that I can access (such as the length of wire between the circuit breaker and where it leaves the breaker box. If nothing else, if I can isolate where the problem is, I might be able to reduce the amount of time the electrician needs to complete the task, thus saving me money. On the other hand, he'd probably want to verify my findings himself.

Sorry, I'm thinking out loud again.

 

[EddieDuece]

So what you are saying is this functions correctly in the off position, but does not in the on position?

 

[KornGeek]

The circuit (I believe) is laid out as follows:

An outlet (1a) inside the garage
A switch(1b) inside the garage controlling a light 1(c) outside the garage
A switch(2a) in the downstairs bathroom controlling the lights(2c) in that room.
An outlet(2b) in the downstairs bathroom not controlled by the switch.
A switch(3a) in the garage that controls an outlet(3b) and an overhead light (3c)
A motion-controlled light(4) on the front-outside of the house, not linked to a switch
An overhead outlet(5) on the ceiling of the garage
The doorbell (6)
A switch(7a) connected to an outlet (7b) in our front room.
An outlet(8) in our front room not connected to a switch.

Regardless of switch positions, nothing on this circuit gets power.

Approximate layout looks like:

[tt]
*******************************************
* * *
* * *
* *2a/b *
* * 2c *
* ***********************
* * 3a/b *
* * 1a/b*1c
* * *
* * 3c *
* * *
* * * *
* 8 7b *7a * *
********************* *
6* 5 *
* *[breaker box]
* *
***********************
4

[/tt]

There is a visible conduit going from 3a/b up to the ceiling (possibly connectint to 3c, but I'm doing this from memory), turning to the right to connect to 5, then down the wall near 6 where it disappears behind some cabinets. A separate conduit brances off from here leading to 4 roughly where the bend in the conduit is.

I know I'm not explaining myself well, but hopefully you can figure out what I mean.

Thanks.

 

[EddieDuece]

So it sounds like one of the reset buttons on a GFI outlet needs resetting. Any outlet in the garage, kitchen, bathroom, or exterior is going to be on a GFI circuit, with GFI outlets. I bet there is a outlet that needs reset, but you just haven't found it yet? I built a new home about 2 years ago, and laid out the wiring, electrical and low voltage, and this happened to me just this last winter. I forgot the location of one of the GFI resets.

When did your circuit stop working? What was it due to?

 

[EddieDuece]

I should say, was there adverse weather when it stopped working?

 

[KornGeek]

It stopped about a week ago. No adverse weather. 2b and 3b are the only 2 GFCIs, and we've tried resetting them both. Even if a GFCI had tripped, the wires leading to the outlet should still show a charge, but they don't.

 

[edfair]

You have voltage (black at circuit breaker) to the neutral bus in the breaker box, this makes the breaker good at the box. You don't have voltage at the first outlet. You have a broken wire or a connector that has broken somewhere between the breaker box and the outlet.

Turn the breaker off. Open up the outlet box and pull the outlet far enough out so you can get to the connectors from either side. You can turn the breaker back on.

You need a voltmeter, measuring to 250v AC. Measure the AC voltage on either side of the outlet. If nothing there it is definitely between the box and the outlet. If your voltmeter leads have alligator clips you don't even have to worry about getting shocked if you connect them before you turn the breaker back on. Then check the black to green. If nothing there it is the black wire. If black and green are OK it is the white wire giving the problem, either enroute or at the neutral bus.

The GFI outlets won't affect the circuit. They stop the current supply locally if the current is unequal in the 2 supply wires (a ground).

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[edfair]

And it matters if you have aluminum wire. They tend to lose connection at the screw posts plus they corrode. And it is particularly problamatic if the devices are for copper only.

The recepticles will be marked if they are approved for AL.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[wires]

Even if a GFCI had tripped, the wires leading to the outlet should still show a charge, but they don't."

Not it the wires are fed from the load side of a upstream GFCI.


"There is a visible conduit"

Is your house wired in conduit? The only place I know where this is common is the Chicago area. Something about a big fire...


I assume that all the devices in the above drawing you believe to be on the same circuit and all other circuits in the house are working normally. I also assume that you are comfortable working with household wiring, have read a book like "Practical Electrical Wiring" and are familiar with the safety issues involved.

The basic steps go like this:

1. Locate the breaker for the failed circuit, turn off the breaker and disconnect the related hot/neutral (black/white) wires at the panel (breaker box).

2. Start by opening device boxes on the failed circuit closest to the panel. In your drawing this is most likely 1, 3, 4 or 5

3. Carefully note how the wires are connected to the devices in the box.

4. With a test light or volt tick check for voltage on ALL wires in the box! With a test light test between ground and each wire. With the volt tick touch each terminal. My current favorite volt tick is the Greenlee GT-11 it is sensitive enough to tell the difference between a hot and neutral.

http://www.amazon.com/GREENLEE-GT-11-Greenlee-Mini-Volt/dp/B000KGY14K

5. Disconnect one set of hot/neutral (black/white) wires at a time and using a continuity tester determine where they go. With NM cable (Romex) this is fairly easy since each pair is in a separate cable. In conduit the hot/neutral pairing can be difficult to determine.

5a. The first test is between each wire and ground. If the wire is disconnected at the other end it will be an open circuit. Once you have an open circuit then short the other end to ground and you should have continuity between the wire and ground.

6. Repeat this procedure until you either find the problem or give up and call an electrician...


Above all BE CAREFUL!!! Unless you know what you are doing you will not only endanger yourself but other for years to come if you don't get everything back together correctly.

 

[AndyD5]

it is just a thought but in my parents home we have a light switch that powers the ceiling fan in the family room tied into a circuit that also energizes the exterior outlet on the back patio then feeds back to the GFI in the bathroom if the exterior plug gets wet it trips the GFI as it should and the fan goes dead along with the light in the bathroom you might check you don't have a water leak or an exterior exposure you just didn't know about being on that circuit. I'm not much good to you via email etc but I could help you if I could see the problem do you have a digital camera. I've been doing all aspects of home remodeling for years when I'm not busy at work. if you have a camera snap me some shots of what you are looking at but first things first was the circuit built in at construction or an after thought if it's drawing too many amps it may have trashed your breaker and you just don't know it. andyd5@hotmail.com