Helping Oneself 1

[AIXSPadmin]

This probably will not be a well received thread and probably will offend some who will want it removed. That said, on to my topic.

What has happened that people can no longer help themselves? There are PLENTY of resources available; bookstores, libraries, the Internet. You can find an answer to most of your questions if you look.

What is driving this is a question that I saw posted in the AIX forum today. The tread "how do I export a variable in Ksh?" Any beginning book on the shell will explain this. I know this is a forum to answer questions for those who need answers, but have people and society become so lazy and apathetic that they can no longer do anything for themselves? If one cannot find an answer in a reasonable amount of time or if it is a question that requires some technical expertise and experience, but for simple questions that can be found in many places, please do some legwork.

I believe this problem spills into other areas too. Instead of taking the time to eat healthfully and exercise, it is easier to run to BK Gourmet Dining and get a fat-laden artery clogging burger. Then later when problems develop (health, because they are 60 lbs overweight) lo-and-behold sue because of not being able read and access the plethora of exercise and nutrition information available.

Is thought and intelligent thinking dead?

 

[jrbarnett]

I agree with you AIXSpadmin.
A large proportion of the Access questions I answer can be solved by pressing F1 and reading the helpfile.
The trouble is though, if everybody decided to do that, Tek-Tips would be redundant as people would work things out for themselves.
In my entire career I have only known one person in the end user category (but very computer literate, certainly not a 'luser') ever actually try and sort things out himself before calling a tech in to sort it out. He would have details about what he tried, what worked and what didn't and exactly what the problem was, any messages he received etc.

John

 

[CajunCenturion]

I too agree with you AIXSPadmin, especially with your characterization of lazy and apathetic.

However, I disagree with jrbarnett in that TT would become redundant. In that case, (at least I hope) Tek-Tips would become more of a forum by and between professionals to deal with techical problems that cannot be found in the manuals. I think we'd see more discussions about some interesting technical topics, with questions being around some real problems and methods to develop solutions, rather than the mundane, "How to make in print 'Hello World'".

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[dwarfthrower]

It's a double edged sword... The prevalence of information that makes TT a stimulating place for those of us who like to sink our teeth into the tough problems, also means that a lot of people who don't have a programmer's mindset are being told "it's easy to be a programmer, just go on the internet and ask someone if you have a problem"

Also, we all used whatever resources we had when we were learning... it's just that 15 years ago, there was no

http://WWW to

go running to so we learned how to read manuals and references and make associative leaps between cause and effect.

 

[AnanthaP]

You get a guy who has studied a course on one subject, been thrown in the deep end of the pool, got access to an internet account and what do you expect?

... maybe if fora like TT stopped publishing the names of responders .. What drives us to answer such questions?

Also, think of the guys that employ them. How cynically they are exploiting the knowledge (yours) available on the WWW.

My company started Unix training by getting us a copy each of a solid text book ('Becca Thomas and Jean Yates), making available Kernighan and Pike in the classroom and setting aside 5 terminals for training. (In those pre-web and terminal emulation days, this full thing, was a massive exercise).

The point is that companies that employ these poor souls are also responsible for not creating an environment of self-reliance and focussed work. That's somethig some of us should be addressing. One way is give points for co-operation and take them away if people got answers off the web when somebody else in the organisation says thet knew it (or about it).

End

 

[dwarfthrower]

A lot of good points here... some I think we also need to be mindful of -
TT is voluntary, you don't have to answer a question in blistering detail (or even at all). - My answering strategy follows a general difficulty / common knowledge rough mental equation.
eg.
[COLOR== red]Q. Is is possible to make a message box in
JavaScript?[/color]
[COLOR== blue]A. Yes.[/color]

[COLOR== red]Q. How do I make a message box in Javascript?[/color]
[COLOR== blue]A. Use the alert, prompt or confirm functions.[/color]

[COLOR== red]Q. I'm using the JavaScript confirm() function to let the user decide whether to continue, but the script keeps going regardless, here's my code... What am I doing wrong?[/color]
[COLOR== blue]A. You are calling the confirm function, but not assigning it to a variable.
Use like this instead:
[tt]var keepgoing = confirm();
if(keepgoing){...};[tt]
[/color]

Only if a particularly challenging problem presented would I give out a detailed solution. This helps people help themselves and over time might do some small amount to combat the plague of 'RTFM' deserving questions.

 

[frozenpeas]

Unfortunately, you will find this problem wherever you go.

I know I have asked questions that are rudimentary to some but I try to find the answer for myself before I waste others' time.

But I agree - far to many people think, "I don't know how to do this - I'll post on Tek-Tips" without even bothering to do any research at all.

I work with someone who is continually saying to me "How do I..." then when I show him he says, "That's what I thought."

No one can escape!

frozenpeas

 

[dilettante]

My favorite is when a fairly simple question is asked, you give an answer with some background, and even give a fairly complete code-fragment...

Then you get a reply like "thanks, I just used part of your idea and it worked fine." Problem is, their half-assed approach only works in certain simple cases - the few they tried, usually degenerate cases.

Then when it falls to pieces guess who'll get badmouthed?

Well, I won't bother with a link to the thread I have in mind, what's the point?

Even funnier is when you're given a partial description of the problem or question and somebody else chimes in with an "answer" but they don't give the assumption context of their answer. The the 1st guy comes back with "gee, don't work" even though the answer itself should have been a dead giveaway that it was irrelevant.

I'd hazard a guess that 90% of the people asking questions here in TT are blindfolded, flailing away hoping to connect with the tech-pinata they're swinging at. There seem to be a good proportion of blindfolded monkeys in the trees yelling out suggestions about where to swing too.

Don't you love "professional forums?"

 

[frozenpeas]

"I'd hazard a guess that 90% of the people asking questions here in TT are blindfolded, flailing away hoping to connect with the tech-pinata they're swinging at.  There seem to be a good proportion of blindfolded monkeys in the trees yelling out suggestions about where to swing too."

Ha, that's great!

frozenpeas

 

[dwarfthrower]

While I agree wholeheartedly that the standard of questions and answers in some of the forums (especially the HTML/Javascript ones) leave a lot to be designed. I don't think the blame can be leveled purely at non-professionals.

Some of the most interesting and challenging posts have come from hobbyists. They often have more inspiration to do something outside of the day-to-day requirements of the software professionals.

Also, unless we're paying for a forum, I don't think we can really complain if other people on the forum are 'unprofessional'.

Which brings up an interesting point. What would TT be like if they instituted a pay-per-question format, where the asker would post a reward amount for a correct answer? Minimum of around $2.00 or something - not prohibitive enough to stop someone asking a serious question, but enough to prevent someone asking something that they could just as easily find on google.

Opinions?

 

[MDXer]

Frozenpeas,
Your probably right too. I saw someone in a forum whose answer to everything was unistall app X and reinstall appX some of the posts where to threads where the issue had more than likely been solved with previous advice of apply or reapply the service pack.

Another scenario I enjoy is when someone asks How do I solve this problem and you post a code snippet and explanation to point them in the right direction and you get back "I know that but I don't want to it that way, because I thought there may be a faster way"

I won't even start on the people who are obviously new to analytic applications and tell your wrong.



"Shoot Me! Shoot Me NOW!!!"
- Daffy Duck

 

[Tarwn]

Well, I'm not new to this particular subject, we actually ran a similar thread in the ASP forum for a while

I see questions as being in three general categories.

The first category is the ignorant user. This user has no clue what they are doing, doesn't have the skill to hack a language, but is attempting to do it anyway. They take little samples they find on the web and I guess expect them to magically work for all problems. When that doesn't happen or if they give up before hey even find that all-powerful sample code, they come here and expect someone here to answer all of their problems. And invariably someone does answer their question, increasing their dependance on this site in order to do every day tasks.

The second category is the advanced beginner. While this user has moderate to advanced skill in the area and does a little searching on their own, they have yet to master the perfect google search phrases. They ask less basic questions, generally edging into the more advanced side of things (efficiency, theory, etc). They like getting code or exact solutions but care more about knowing why something works rather than simply knowing that it does work. Amazingly I have actually seen some absolute beginners fall into this category, and I don't mind these types of users because I know they won't come back in 5 minutes with an error message and plea for help.

The third category is the advanced user. This user asks questions on things that ususally a) don't show up in google, b) definately don't show up in the manual, and c) actually need a good amount of thought to answer. I group design and theory questions into this as well. These types of questions have less solid answers are occasionally will lead to discussion among the various posters in a forum as they sift through differant methods of doing things. The occasional question that does have an answer is usually only answered by someone else who managed to have the same problem one time and spent days/weeks/months finding the answer.


Back in the day when I first read the description for these forums I believed that category 2 and 3 were the only applicable users. After being here for a while and actually being in category 3 now (in certain fields), I feel that there is definately room for 2 and 3 but that category 1 is running rampant through the halls.

Some people will lay the blame at the educators feet for not teaching these people how to learn on their own, some will lay the blame at the feet of the managers who have unrealistic expectations, some people will lay the blame on the people who answer the questions of category 1 users and keep them coming back for more. As for myself, I blame the category 1 user.

If the user doesn't know where to look, they should have the foresight to ask where to look, not to ask foran instant "just add water" answer.
If the user doesn't have experience looking, well, no one is born with experience, others do it everyday.
If the user took a job with over-the-top expectations or where the expectations changed, then either a) learn what you need to get the job done, b) explain you need time to learn the new skill, there is no magic fountain of knowledge, c) get a new job
A lot of people will complain that it isn't their fault they are looking for help on a very basic matter, that their manager gave it to them with a very limited time schedule and no time to learn how to use the technology/language from scratch. Is that a failing in the manager? Yes. Do I feel bad for you? Yes. Does this give you an excuse to get someone else to do the work for you? Nope, sorry.

So basically, when it comes to category 1 users I have yet to see an excuse that isn't in some manner their own fault.

[sub]01000111 01101111 01110100 00100000 01000011 01101111 01100110 01100110 01100101 01100101 00111111[/sub]

http://www.tiernok.com/

The never-completed website

 

[lespaul]

As a relatively new programmer (3+ years) I have found this forum unreplaceable. I have also learned so much that I would have never known just by browsing the threads. But even when I first started posting here, BEFORE actually writing my question I would search the help manual, the internet and these forums to try and find SOMETHING to point me in the right direction. Only after I have exhausted every other resource do I finally post a question. And when someone is kind enough to help me, I let them know.

But in browsing the forums, I have decided that in the "need help" category of people I am the exception not the rule. There are too many people willing to take the easy way out. I'm the first to acknowledge that compared to some of the people here, I don't know SQUAT!! But I'm always willing to learn. But compared to some of the other users, I'm a goddess of computer skills! And so I have tried to help out, but only if they show they are willing to help themselves. If I read a thread and know that either I or someone else in the forum has answered it (sometimes multiple times), I'll provide a link to the appropriate Thread, depending on my mood and the phrasing of the question, I may even tell them to search the forum and not be considerate enough to provide the link!

But the most annoying aspect of the entire thing is the ingratitude and ungraciousness that some people show when they can't solve the problem. It's not MY problem, it's YOURS! And doing diagnostics through TT can be difficult.

I think as a society we have become used to instant gratification:
Need to know something? search the internet;
Hungry? go to the drive through;
need a life? watch "reality television";
Fat (since you sat around watching other people's lives eating a greasy burger)? take a pill or have surgery;
Stuck on your work? have someone at TT do it for me;

Is there a solution? Who knows. But I'll keep coming back here just to learn as long as I can. I don't know who said it but:

The smartest (wo)man is the one who knows how little they really know and does what s/he can to remedy it!




Leslie
landrews@metrocourt.state.nm.us

There are 10 types of people in the world -
those who understand binary
and
those who don't!

 

[needcoffee]

Weighing in as a user 1-2 with AIX and VMS, according to Tarwn's scale above, I have found TT a most valuable resource. I spend a little time everyday reading through *nix forums increasing my understanding and watching for problems that other experience that may effect my servers.
I have to agree with the frustrated statements above. I see people asking the same questions over and over without even bothering to look through the forum they are posting in. We can all see that a large percentage of questions could be solved with a simple seach of man, google, or TT. How many of these users also have vendor support that they could call and bother? I've called Big Blue a few times with questions I needed answered quickly instead of posting HELP I CAN'T...blah blah blah.

It is up to the "professionals" to help moderate the basic questions that appear on the forums. We have the ability to reshape TT into the forum that we would like by pointing the lazy masses at the the proper TT FAQ or thread, Red Flag as inappropriate, or just ignoring the question. Point repeat offenders at threads like these to express our disgust with their actions. I have noticed that some seasoned participants are starting/ restarting this trend. These inproper, unresearched posts will decline if handled in this fashion.

Time to get off my soapbox and make another pot...
needcoffee

 

[Tarwn]

I would say if your sepnding anytime at all trying to advance your skills by reading past threads, your in the category 2 group. The basic difference in my category 1 and category 2 listing above was mindset, not skill level.
Saying "My boss wants me to get it done soon otherwise I would look for the answer myself, do you know the answer?" is closer to category 1, but saying "my boss is really flaming mad because i haven't solved this (I spent 2 hours searching google and old threads here), here is what I have so far..." is a category 2 thing.

I got to say flaming in a post and it was pertinent Sorry, got an email a few minutes ago asking if I wanted to go to Flaming Amy's Burrito barn for lunch, now it's stuck in my head...such a multi-use word...

-Tarwn

[sub]01000111 01101111 01110100 00100000 01000011 01101111 01100110 01100110 01100101 01100101 00111111[/sub]

http://www.tiernok.com/

The never-completed website

 

[jrbarnett]

Everybody,

A couple of points:

The term "expert" is a relative term. An expert in a particular area is somebody who knows more about a specific product/service/technology than you do.

Do I consider myself an expert in Microsoft Access? No - because I am only too aware that I haven't really touched ADO and MSDE/SQL Server, because I have had no need to, even though I have worked as an Access programmer and have software I have written used in the City of London.

Similarly for the Windows operating systems and PC hardware. There are large areas that I have heard of but don't know and haven't the foggiest idea where to get started.

I agree with Lespaul, in that the smartest is the person who is aware of how little (s)he knows but is aware of how to obtain it.

Slightly related, my mother heard recently the following phrase on the radio and quoted it to me which is highly relevant to this thread (unfortunately she can't remember who said it, so apologies to whoever):

"A generalist is somebody who knows something about everything, whereas a specialist is somebody who knows everything about something".

If she remembers (or I find out) I will post it here.

John

 

[MDXer]

Knowing where to look and how to look for answers is a skill in itself in my opinion. When I am asked to interview or meet with job candidates I have made it a standard set of questions I ask "What knowledge resources do you use", "If X Should break how would you go about determining the cause and the resolving the issue". It's scary how few people can even answer these questions. Most popular answer is "Well I know people".

I don't consider myself to be an expert in any area, but rather acknowledge that I have more expertise in some areas than I do in others. Do I ask stupid questions about VB? probably do I ask them about SQL or OLAP? rarely or never. And typically if I do ask what later appears to be a stupid question it is because I have looked at the piece of code for so long that I may just need another set of eyes to see if there is something I have missed.



"Shoot Me! Shoot Me NOW!!!"
- Daffy Duck

 

[dwarfthrower]

Check this for a real doozy thread216-607522

Straight from the "How do I do the simplest thing? - [Insert supremely correct answer from forum's top expert here] - That Doesn't Work." handbook.

 

[frozenpeas]

Classic...

*groan*

frozenpeas