Grounding - revisited 2

[phonesaz]

I have read many of the older posts relating to grounding. As a little background, I have been in this business 32 years, installing the last 10 or so. I was "trained" by ex-Bell guys on the job and by Avaya on-line. I have no construction/electrical background other than phone installations, and passed my low voltage test by doing a lot of memorizing of the things unfamiliar to me (fire systems, satellite, etc.) In the past 5 years I have installed at least 200 phone systems; primarily Partner, Magix, IP Office and a few stray things I just moved for people

This is leading up to an unbelievably stupid question. I have NEVER worried about grounding. My 'trainer' told me it was pretty much unnecessary, since the third prong in an electrical outlet was the ground. I have seen him run copper to a couple of ground bars before, but they were very small bars (maybe 4"?) and the copper was isolated.

Now, of course, I have a potential grounding problem and I am pretty much lost. There appears to be nothing in the room to ground to, except two copper wires coming from the Qwest dmarc. Would I run a copper wire, and connect the two (mine and Qwest's) with a ground bar? I read on a post where you can buy an external ground outlet that plugs into a three-prong outlet and becomes the ground - is that logical?

I feel totally inadequate in this area - it appears as if it is easy if there is a ground in the room and difficult if there is not - most of my work is replacment systems in existing buildings, so I don't get a whole lot of say in what I have to work with.

 

[tanderson3733]

If you're installing Avaya equipment then you are required to ground all units. Avaya will not honor warranty or maintenance on damaged hardware that was not grounded. We require the customer to provide one at the time of the install. There are some companies that will not complete the install and power up the system if one is not present.

You also can get noise in the line, especially with analog trunks. Some systems are worse than others.

Your trainer is also incorrect that the ground wire in the power cable is adequate for protecting telco equipment, on many levels. IP Office uses outboard power supplies, so the ground wire isn't even connected into the units. The exception to this is the IP500, and I have seen these get fried during a lightning storm - Avaya WILL charge to replace these if they aren't grounded (I speak from experience on this one).

The only way to ensure the ground is good is to have an electrician run one from the panel. If you know how to test for ground potential and resistance you can clamp onto building steel or copper water pipe, but I've also seen too many of these done wrong and as useless as not having one at all.

 

[buitenhek]

Holly Molly! Welcome to the club. You have struck a deep nerve that should get a lot of play in this forum (actual versus standards). Do not feel lost. Join the crowd.
Let's start at the beginning:
1. Don't buy the book "Grounding for dummies" yet
2. ....there appears to be a potential grounding problem....
What is the problem?
Have you or others had electrical shocks? - major problem
Has equipment smoked? - major problem
Has equipment acted weird? - might be a problem
Has someone pointed out to you that there is no ground? - ehh
Have you notices there is no ground? - Good Boy!

Regards
Peter Buitenhek
ProfitDeveloper.com

"Never settle for a job well done...always look for cost cutting measures

 

[phonesaz]

A) I noticed there was no ground
B) I don't see anywhere to ground other than the wire coming from the PVC the feed comes in on (I was thinking of strapping to it)
C) I noticed AFTER I created a problem - I need a battery signal from a chassis on a Multitech unit to the chassis ground screw on the telephone system (Merlin Magix)so in the absence of above-mentioned ground, the tie trunk siezed up like it is in use even when not, and now stays that way even after replacing the trunk board and disconnected everything. So I think there is a ground/short in the system somewhere now and am on my way to replace it - not how I wanted to spend Sunday but oh well.

 

[Dexman]

An inactive member once posted a lengthy response about grounding a Partner ACS. I did a search and found the post from 2004. I've C&P'ed the part that talks about grounding the processor.

hbiss (Vendor) 22 Aug 04 0:35


A word about that ground screw on the processor. It is a supplemental ground that (per UL) should also be connected to ground in case the plug is pulled. Be careful here. The instructions state to connect this to a cold water pipe or building steel. You don't want to do that. ALWAYS connect it to the same place the line cord is grounded which is why I recommend the DITEK 3GTP.

We found this out the hard way, too cheap to buy the 3GTP back then. We had a system that we installed on the third floor of an office building. We grounded the CO line protectors and the ground screw on the processor to building steel, an "I" beam up in the ceiling. All was fine for over two years when we were called to find out why the entire system went down. We found that the processor would not power up. We replaced it. Two days later the same problem. This time I happened to grasp the line cord and found that it was warm! In removing the module I also happened to notice a spark when I removed the ground wire from the screw. I got out my volt meter and found that there was around 50 volts between that "I" beam and the plate on the electrical receptacle. Apparently this is intermittent. Back at the shop I opened the first processor module (ACS R2) and found the reason that it was destroyed. The ground screw is connected to the ground prong on the line cord but not directly. From the screw a wire connects to a trace on the board that runs to the back of the board where it picks up the ground from the power connector. All along the way there are other traces and components connected to this ground trace which was burned in half. This put the 50 volts across components on the board that destroyed them.

Moral of the story is make sure that if you connect the ground screw make sure you connect it to the same point as the line cord ground, not somewhere else.


If it ain't broke, I haven't fixed it yet.

 

[SYQUEST]

This is why we have the NEC!!!!!!!!

And why people need to be educated properly about BONDING and GROUNDING in telecommunications and data systems. Covered primarily in chapters two and eight in the NEC. Also there is a VERY good trade publication called EC&M magazine that covers lots of this BONDING and GROUNDING stuff. You can find them on the web @

http://www.ecmweb.com.

I have had a subscription to this publication for over 10 years. The subject matter is excellent! Anyone dealing with this stuff needs to know what they are doing.

It boils down to LIFE/SAFETY/PROTECTION!!!!!!

....JIM....

 

[phonesaz]

I fried the processor, tie line board, and 016 t/r board due to lack of ground, or that is what I think happened. Ended up grounding to the copper wire than Qwest brought in with the dmarc. If that isn't good enough, the customer will have to provide me something better. Its been a looonnnggg day - thank you for all the responses. I will never take grounding lightly again.

 

[strmwalker]

most telco service providers do not want you to ground to
there equipment you should have the customer to get a
electrician in and get the ground from the same point
as your outlets.the reason for this is,let say you have
a storm an lightning hits the telephone pole outside the
building and it comes in on the phone lines and the ground
on telco side is no good your equipment is now toast reason
it plugged into the electrical outlet which had a better
ground so it went thru system to get to that ground.

no problems only solutions

strmwalker

 

[SYQUEST]

Here is a link on the ITW/Linx website that gives a thumbnail sketch of communications bonding and grounding:

http://www.itwlinx.com/articles/grounding_reference.asp

But this is just a sketch. Method and practice may vary by the Authority Having Jurisdiction.

Hope this helps!

....JIM....

 

[mikeydidit]

After reading these post, i wonder if this may be one of those that do not fall under our area of expertise? We all raise hell when we have to come in after a sparky has butchered a cabling job. This may part of our job that they are actually qualified to do.

On all of our renovations and new construction, I always ask for (and make sure their in the plans) grounding bars in the closets. This is not what I do. This is what they make the big bucks for.

The last renovation I was part of they ran a ground from a major feed to my main TC. This cable was about 5/8" think. I asked, "why so big a cable" ? Because of the distance. I feel these guys made an effort to put in what needed to be to keep my equipment safe.

I know this is no help when you have to come behind someone else and fix something that improperly installed the first time. But this is the time to fix it right. Inform the customer they need to have a ground ran into the room for you to properly install the system.

Just my two cents this morning.


"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower (1890-1969), Inaugural Address, January 20, 1953

For the best response to a question, read faq690-6594

 

[phonesaz]

I agree - what I have learned from this - customer or their electrician will provide grounds on all going-forward jobs. If they do not, I will insist the customer buy the Ditek unit, and make sure I have an outlet to plug it into. Also, I will NEVER not ground again!!!

 

[SYQUEST]

My experiences, when involved in the beginning with the contractors, have been good. I would give them the requirements for the equipment, requesting ground bar and receptacles, etc. and they would provide them. But I also check them to make sure they are done correctly! Not all electricians are created equal!

In my installation or service agreements for a new system, I include the power and BOND/GROUND requirements in the "customer must provide" section of the document. This way the responsibility is on the customer!

....JIM....