getting my admin to support JSP/servlets

[carpeliam]

Like most colleges I suppose, my college gives me free space for a website. Because I'm a computer science major who's doing a lot of programming and web design/development, I'm trying to squeeze as much as I can out of this. So currently, I can write CGI scripts (Perl) and run database queries on my own personal database (mySQL). But they don't support servlets... and because my Java prowess far outmatches that of my Perl, I'd really prefer doing JSP over Perl scripts, even though I have more experience with Perl (only because I have yet to write one JSP because I don't have a server that offers it). So my mission is to convince my admin to allow servlets so I can write some JSP stuff. And your mission is to come up with good things to tell my admin ) Here's our conversation so far...<br><br>&quot;We don't currently have any plans to implement servlets. Personally, I think they're way too big a security hole to let students execute whatever they want on the servers. Even as it is, running scripts can be kind of scary, and I'm looking at installing something like cgi-wrappers to make sure malicious users can't do terrible things to the system via scripts. (Not that they can't anyway, just from the shell, but this would make me a bit less nervous.)&quot;<br><br><br>&gt; Maybe I'm unclear, what are the different risks for Perl CGI scripts and servlets?<br><br>&quot;They're actually pretty similar. But we support perl already, and Java has problems of its own (like eating CPU like there's no tomorrow...).&quot;<br><br>===============<br><br>Now, from what I understand, Java used to be a memory hog, but has since come to run very smoothly (and can even run faster than C/C++ at times) due to its automatic garbage collection. I know CGI can be very slow because each query is a seperate hit to the server... I recall that being different for something like ASP/JSP, but I'm not sure. Is JSP more efficient in that way? If so, please let me know, I need ammo )<br><br>Also... Java's security has improved greatly, especially from Java 1.1 to Java 1.2. But is it more secure than a Perl script? Please, give me something to tell my admin )<br><br>Please forgive the double post, this is going to both the Java and JSP forums... thanks again. <p>Liam Morley<br><a href=mailto:lmorley@wpi.edu>lmorley@wpi.edu</a><br><a href=

http://www.wpi.edu/~lmorley/>

] :: imotic :: website :: [</a><br>"light the deep, and bring silence to the world.<br>
light the world, and bring depth to the silence."

 

[fenris]

Liam, do you live on campus? Know someone that lives on campus? If so, do you have access to the internet through some sort of rez network? You could always setup your own server(or a friends machine) to do what you want. When I lived in rez I had my machine setup as a webserver(apache) but nothing fancy. What about the comp sci club, they must have some spots on their servers.<br><br>If worse comes to worse, you could always ask your network admin if he/she could let you setup a computer with a static ip that would run the servlets.<br><br>Good luck... <p>Troy Williams B.Eng.<br><a href=mailto:fenris@hotmail.com>fenris@hotmail.com</a><br><a href= > </a><br>

 

[carpeliam]

Well I could set up my own server, but (a) I'd have to keep my computer on (which I usually do anyway but now there'd be some kind of outside force which I don't like) and (b) I wouldn't be able to have it on the same domain...I'd have to set up my own domain, and if I wanted a domain name I'd have to go buy one, and as they change the IP addresses every year and you have to pay for the first two years when you buy a domain name....... it's a pain ) so if at all possible, I'd like to convince my admin that servlets are ok and worth installing. Anything I can tell him? <p>Liam Morley<br><a href=mailto:lmorley@wpi.edu>lmorley@wpi.edu</a><br><a href=

http://www.wpi.edu/~lmorley/>

] :: imotic :: website :: [</a><br>"light the deep, and bring silence to the world.<br>
light the world, and bring depth to the silence.

 

[cmmrfrds]

Liam, in the book, Core Servlets and JavaServer Pages by Marty Hall, the 1st chapter talks about the advantages of Servlets and JSP. Quick highlight (headings) of advantages of servlets over CGI. Servlets are more efficient, convenient, powerful, protable, secure, and less expensive.<br><br>&nbsp;Apparently, CGI has start up overhead with each process where the server stays running. No start up cost. Since it is running you can keep things like connections open between sessions. Also, store data between requests. Servlets are convenient since they are set up to automate communication with HTML. Everything can be done in Java so don't need other languages like JavaScript and CGI. Portable since everything is in Java. Expense deals with once the server is available it is easy to add servlets. Supporting structure/utilities for servlets is set up to handle communication with HTML.<br><br>It appears to me the main advantage of JSP is that you can add dynamic&nbsp;&nbsp;data to HTML.<br><br>I recommend the book since it is easy reading and the examples are available on the internet.<br><br>Jerry

 

[carpeliam]

Actually, I got the Java Enterprise in a Nutshell book from O'Reilly, a publisher I swear by... They've got a number of great sections. They don't go too far in depth (hence the &quot;nutshell&quot, but it's the best bang for your buck you'll ever see. Here's the most recent conversation I've had with my admin (before I read your comment).. some of your points were covered here, let me know if there's something I missed.<br><br>Here's what I said:<br>&quot;an older version of Java (say, Java 1.0 or even 1.1) might be a memory hog.. but Java has gotten a lot better in this area (same thing with security). Plus, servlets are persistent between invocations, which improves performance with fewer server hits... where a CGI script by nature must query the server each time it is executed.&quot;<br><br>And got this reply:<br>&quot;Yeah, but a cgi is a brief hit followed by fairly efficient code, rather than running inside a virtual machine. Frankly, our web servers are kind of clunky, and until they get faster, I'd rather have something fairly lightweight (like perl) than something I know will be hefty (like java).&quot;<br><br><br>If you can give me some more fuel, that'd be great ) <p>Liam Morley<br><a href=mailto:lmorley@wpi.edu>lmorley@wpi.edu</a><br><a href=

http://www.wpi.edu/~lmorley/>

] :: imotic :: website :: [</a><br>"light the deep, and bring silence to the world.<br>
light the world, and bring depth to the silence.

 

[cmmrfrds]

Liam, it looks like you are dealing with the classic administrator &quot;god&quot; problem. They exist not only at academia but at all corporations. Reason will not prevail here since they are all powerful. He probably suspects that with more people developing on the server it will mean more work for him, which is probably true. If the server slows down there will be complaints and that means less time to dabble in the stock market, etc. etc....... I suggest you supplicate yourself and have a casual conversation with &quot;god&quot; to see if there is a way to find an advantage for him to have the server running. <br><br>Good luck,<br>Jerry

 

[carpeliam]

Well since it's at a tech school that's filled with Computer Science majors, I appealed to that side of him too... there's a chance here... but I'd like more facts before I say too much ) I have a feeling that JSP is more efficient, but I can be outdebated if I don't have all the facts... <p>Liam Morley<br><a href=mailto:lmorley@wpi.edu>lmorley@wpi.edu</a><br><a href=

http://www.wpi.edu/~lmorley/>

] :: imotic :: website :: [</a><br>"light the deep, and bring silence to the world.<br>
light the world, and bring depth to the silence.