Forget gender, what about age bias in IT? 8

[rosieb]

OK, so gender bias has generated a lot of discussion, but what about age bias?

In the UK, at least, age discrimination is still legal.

According to the agencies (at least they’re honest), at my advanced age, I am:

Incapable of learning
Unable to accept change
Unable to relate to younger co-workers
Unadventurous

(This, notwithstanding that I’ve just completed a masters degree, taken up dog-sledding and travelled independently round Lebanon, Vietnam & Laos.)

Apparently, anyone over 30 is past it in an IT environment!

I’ve been refused interviews where I know I was eminently qualified for the job. (age/gender/combination of the two?)

Maybe I should just retire to a dark corner and get on with my knitting.

(Not bitter, I eventually got a great job in local government where the recruitment process is pretty much bias-free.)

Any thoughts?

Rosie

 

[Lozbinator]

Rosie,

Excellent point about age bias.

Discrimination is not legal where I am, and age is no exception.

I offer the flip-side of the age-bias 'coin'. I am a young female with only a handful of experience and a bachelor's degree.

This in itself is not the problem - the biggest problem is that I look younger than I am, which means usually at first people have trouble getting over their surprise that not only am I old enough to work (!!!), but hold a degree and am in a professional position.

I find its more that shock that holds them back. Once this is dealt with, they usually carry on without any problems.

Having said that, being young can make it hard for some people to be taken seriously at all, but then I suppose that is also dependant on how mature they are as well.

I know others who have experienced difficulty similar to that you mentioned due to being older - and I am shocked by it. These people (in my experience) are often highly skilled, and more mature which I find to be a great combination that can result in high professionalism. I don't understand why employers would consider them 'past it'.

My 2c.

 

[sha76]

Rosie,

Sure, there are some older people who are complete fuddy-duddies, then there are those (including yourself by the sounds of it) who have a wealth of experience, a self-confidence that means they don't feel the need to constantly prove themselves & are often far more reliable than younger colleagues. Surely it shouldn't be too hard to tell the difference with CVs and interviews? (I realise I'm preaching to the converted here!)

You scare me with classing over 30 as old though - I got a distinct impression until I was about 25 that people seemed to think I was too young, sounds like I'd best rush up that career ladder while I have the chance!

I did hear a rumour laws are meant to be coming in to stop age discrimination, I'm afraid I have no details, but it may be worth digging.

Sharon

 

[LesleyW]

Rosie, you made me smile. Have you **really** done all this? "...completed a masters degree, taken up dog-sledding and travelled independently round Lebanon, Vietnam & Laos."

Wow what a woman

 

[CajunCenturion]

There are no doubt cases of illegal age discrimination, but in those situations where I've seen age play a role come in a couple of flavors, both which can make good business sense.

The first is a balance between experience and salary. Although I'm not in complete agreement, the thinking is that whereas experience is a wonderful thing, it's not always worth what it costs, especially in IT where that experience may be in technologies that are now obsolete. The kids coming out of school today have been taught what is to be used today, and because they are younger, they cost less. Others think that experience pays for itself because more options are brought to the table, and more experience can lead to higher production rates.

Right, wrong, or otherwise, let's not hijack this thread to discuss the merits/demerits of these lines of thinking. Let's save that for another thread.


The second factor that I've seen come into play is a judgment of how well that person will fit into the corporate culture, and again, age does matter here as well. I'm sure we can all see how that makes business sense with respect to employee morale, comraderie, and other intangible factors in and around the workplace.

LesleyW - Is that an example of gender bias? If Rosie were a man who had ompleted a masters degree, taken up dog-sledding and travelled independently round Lebanon, Vietnam & Laos, would you say: Wow, what a man?

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[jrbarnett]

My experience is that now, because of anti discrimination legislation in a lot of cases, advertisements, especially for public sector posts (in the UK) often include something like:

"We would particularly welcome applications from disabled or ethnic minorities as these groups are currently under represented in our workforce."

While I am all for allowing people of any ethnic origin or physical/mental disabilities, surely what matters is their ability to do the job that they are paid to do - not because of targets set by the Government or other regulatory bodies for equal opportunities legislation. I haven't yet heard of an interview panel turning down candidate a because candidate b, although worse than a in some respects, helped them fulfill quotas relating to numbers of people in certain class, disability, age, ethnic minority, sexual orientation or other ways of classifying people.

John

 

[SQLSister]

Age discrimination is rampant, especially in the IT world. The reason is usually salary. I can pay a 20 something with two years experience much less than a 40 something with 20 years experience. Of course, realistically, the 20 year old cannot perform at the same level as someone with more experience even knowing the new technologies because they haven't run in the problems with certain approaches yet. And yes, the discrimination can start as early as 30 although 35 is more common in my experience.

So what can you do to get interviews where you can try to counter their desires for someone young?

First, make sure your resume doesn't indicate your age. Don't put in the year you graduated. Only show the last 10 years of experience. Then they don't know if you are 30 or 50.

Next have an answer prepared for why it would be better to hire you than someone younger. Discuss the things you have learned that make you a more effective developer than you were in your twenties. Show examples of how you have learned new technologies recently. You might even discuss how well you get along with younger colleages.

They may not ask you this outright, but most interviews give you a chance to answer why you think you would be the best person for the job. Use your prepared answer here as part of the answer to this question or just add it at the end of the interview where you are usually asked if you have anything you want to add.

You may also decide you may not want to work in a place that doesn't value your experience. It's always a judgement call when you interview. I can remember one interview where I wouldn't have taken the job if they offered it because the person who would be my supervisor clearly felt that women didn't belong in the work force at all. Why would I want to waste my time in a place like that? The same thing can apply when poeple are blatant about age discrimination.

 

[KenCunningham]

First of all Rosie, thanks for the thread, it's something I've been thinking about for some time and (at 46 and counting) something that's very close to my heart. My own feelings are that experience will out given the chance. The problem is getting the chance. I'm interested to read that you too have a job in Local Government (presumably in the UK?), and that they at least do not seem to have a glass ceiling as far as age is concerned. However, that might be a function of salary ratios when compared to the so-called 'private-sector' (much of which is partially Government-funded anyway!). I'm currently considering a change due to circumstances outwith my control (aging parents), and I'm hopeful but not convinced that experience will out in the end. Fingers crossed!

 

[flapeyre]

SQLSister has a good point. I am fortunate in that I look a lot younger than I am (I'm a male, age 48, but am frequently assumed to be in my 30s), and when I got this job 7 years ago I had just a little gray hair. I don't put age-identifying information on my resume, either. Too easy for the potential employer to circular-file it and say (to themselves), "He does not fit the requirements". Once they make you an offer, and you're hired, you may have to put your birth date on the application, but in the US, it's illegal to discriminate on the basis of age:

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/29/623.html

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward, for here you have been, and there you will always long to return."

--Leonardo da Vinci

 

[BJCooperIT]

SQLSister,
Thanks for the advice. Since my contract ended at the end of June I have not had a single call as a result of the resumes I sent out. But the consulting firms I previously worked for have been in contact. Apparently age is not as big a factor when you have a proven track record. Guess I will be taking off the year I graduated from school and will change the "30+ years of experience" in the summary section of my resume.

All,
While I cannot prove that my age works "for" or "against" me in securing a contract, it certainly is a factor in being accepted by contract team members. If I am placed on a team of 20-something developers, invariably I wind up eating lunch by myself for the duration of the contract. I think it has to do with the things we have in common. Often they come to me to discuss their personal problems or ask Oracle questions. In short I become Mom, a camp counselor, or a mentor, not a friend.

Age is also an issue in interviews when being questioned by someone half your age. Sometimes they seem to be intimidated or they treat you like you are halfway to senility. The flip side is that you need to treat the interviewer as a peer, not as a subordinate, otherwise you are guilty of discrimination yourself. It reminds me of the interviews early in my career. I remember how awful it was to feel like I was being interviewd by my father!

[sup]Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance.[/sup][sup] ~George Bernard Shaw[/sup]
Consultant/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle 8.1.7 - Windows 2000

 

[SQLSister]

I agree that it may be hard to break into the group when you are significantly older than they are. This may be a factor in choosing which position to accept. It helps if you cultivate some of the same interests that younger people might have. I listen to the same music they do and they often borrow my cds to listen to. This gives us a cultural referent in common and makes it easier to make friends.

And sometimes the younger wrokers are intimidated ny your age, so I have found that it is easier if I take the first step in inviting them to eat lunch with me or in having a non-work related conversation. Once they know that while I may be their mother's age, I am not at all interested in being their mother, things usually go fairly smoothly.

And sometimes the discrimination is not so much on age as on attitude. There are some of us older workers who are unable to look at people in their twenties as peers. They treat them as children who know nothing. I know this attitude greatly annoyed me when I was in my 20's and I suspect it does the same to people who are in their twenties now. And like anything else, a few negative experiences in this area can make a person feel negatively about all people in the same age category.

I don't want to say that I don't think discrimination occurs because I have seen many instances of clear discrimination. But I also believe that is occurs less often than the people in the group which is discriminated against believe it happens.

We often feel discriminated because we didn't get a job we felt very qualified for. But we don't often know the qualifications of the others who have also applied for the same job. Sometimes they truly are much more qualified. That isn't discrimination, it's just plain business sense to hire people with measurably better experience.

Sometimes we get into the trap of believing that people are discriminating and there is nothing we can do to overcome that. People who have this attitude are often not as qualified as other people competing for the same jobs because they are so convinced there is nothing they can do to improve that they don't try to improve or get better qualified.

So I guess what I'm saying is yes, do what you can to forestall possible discrimination, particularly in the process of weeding through resumes. But approach each interview as if you can get the job and if you do not, look for things that you can do to improve your chances next time rather than dwelling on the fact that you may or may not have been discriminated against.

And recognize that sometimes it wasn't that you weren't qualified, but that someone else was more qualified or a better fit personality wise. Anytime I'm hiring, I only get to pick one person for each position even if there are ten people who would do the job well. So 9 of those people may feel discriminated against, but I still can only pick one.

As the person who didn't get the job, you can't really tell if it was discrimination or not unless the interviewer was blatant about it (like the guy who flat out told me that women weren't capable of doing the job). So it is healthier in the long run to examine your performance in terms of what you might be able to do better next time than to decide that people are discriminating against you.

 

[rosieb]

(Oops. Finally got this onto the right thread )

CajunCenturion
Concentrating on your second point (tho’ I would certainly argue with the first) I disagree, utterly. Age has nothing to do with how someone fits into a corporate culture, attitude does.

KenCunningham
Yes, UK local government. The money’s not brilliant but there’s a huge e-government initiative which means some really interesting work (and the perks; holiday, pension and flexitime etc are hard to beat).

All
I think what really annoys me is that it’s still seen as acceptable here to make these assumptions based on age, despite all evidence to the contrary. My experience is, that the more diverse (age, gender, race and anything else) a team, the more creative it is. Companies are missing a trick here.

Overt or covert, this is something which affects/will affect us all.

Rosie

[Aside]LesleyW
You doubt me? I’m hurt.[Smile] That was just a few of the highlights, there was also parascending off an Alp on skis (with a rather cute ski instructor) plus a few other things probably unsuitable for a public forum… None of it was difficult, they just happened to be things I wanted to do and I saw no reason not to. And the list is still growing. "One should try everything once, except incest and folk dancing." Sir Arnold Bax (Actually I would probably add a few more exceptions, though I have tried folk dancing.)[/Aside]

 

[CajunCenturion]

rosieb - You'll get no arguement from me on the first point, as I even said that I didn't agree with that thinking, but was simply pointing out that a lot of people do think that way.

And the same holds true for the second point. Many people do feel that age is a factor with respect to the corporate culture, especially when you consider that people who are a generation (~20 years) apart in age often have different perspectives on many aspect of both business and life. You are absolutely correct that attitude is extremely important, but we need to recognize that our age and maturity (not necessarily the same, but usually correlated) do have a profound affect on our attitudes.

Personally, I am not concerned about age, in fact, the older I get, the less it matters to me, but the more I realize how true the following statement is:

Youth is wasted on the young.


Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[rosieb]

CajunCenturion

Hmm, I don’t exactly disagree but... I think it’s experience, rather than age, that brings maturity. That, plus the desire to learn new skills etc. It’s not the number of years, it’s how you’ve used them.

I do agree that age has a major influence on an individual’s perspective, it’s bizarre to realize that what is current affairs to me, is history to many of my colleagues. But I do feel that a healthy corporate culture should be keen to accommodate a variety of perspectives. It’s all down to that old cliché of judging people on individual merit.

What is interesting is that this thread has generated no dissenting voices; we all seem to agree bias is there, no-one seems to support it, so where is it coming from?

Oh yes, youth is definitely wasted on the young.

 

[palbano]

>> so where is it coming from?

The same place as all the evils of mankind, human nature. Now i kindly request that you stop asking such easy questions.

-pete

 

[SQLSister]

Using observational data, there seems to be an intense need in human beings to divide others into groups of "like me" and "not like me". And then to prefer to associate with the like-me's. The problem is that some human use more restrictive definitions of like-me than others do.

So for me, the group of like-me's include men and women, straights and gays, persons of any religion, and pretty much anyone who is willing to be a mostly law-abiding productive citizen of whatever country. The not-like-me's tend to include other animals and the serious criminals and totally mentally deranged. That's is because I have a fairly wide definition of like-me.

Some people, however, are more judgemental than that and their definitions can be quite narrow. To someone at the other end of the spectrum from me, the like-me's are probably only others of the same race and gender who are around the same age and of the same political persuasion and religion. To them the not-like-me's are all bad and in competition with the like-me's and should be eliminated from that competition for the good of the like-me's.

How you define who is like-me is the crux of the situation, We arrive at these definitions through a complex series of events and possibly even through some genetic processes. Certain personality types (which may or may not be at least partially genetically determined) are more prone to being judgemental than others. For these types, the like-me definitions tend to be narrow depending on the rules they were taught as children or the rules of the religious groups they belong to.

I believe you haven't seen the dissention to these discussions of discrimination because the people who tend to have a narrow definition of like-me are not as likely to seek advice from strangers without knowing if they can be trusted (i.e., meet my definition of like-me) first. Therefore they aren't actually here to give us their divergent vviewpoint.

 

[rosieb]

A nice (in the best sense of the word) analysis.
But somehow they're making too many of the decisions

 

[BruceReed]

BJCooper

I just took a course for executives (over 40, and most people there were over 50) in search of a job & the 1st thing the course instructor said was NEVER say "I have x years of experience in Y", instead say "I have extensive experience in Y" when writing your resume.

That way your resume does not date you. Once you get in the door, you will have to shine with your maturity.

My 2 cents

Bruce

 

[BJCooperIT]

Bruce,
"Extensive Experience"

What a great phrase, I love it! Pardon me, gotta go update my online resumes....

[sup]Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance.[/sup][sup] ~George Bernard Shaw[/sup]
Consultant/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle 8.1.7 - Windows 2000

 

[BruceReed]

BJ Cooper

It seemed to work, after being out of work for 6 months, I start at a new place Monday. Better pay included!
Good luck

BR