For those who can be bothered... 1

[KenCunningham]

...here's an interesting take on the use of English from a Polish perspective. Be warned, the article is long (and somewhat tangled in approach IMHO), but the comments are even longer!

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/aleksandra_lojekmagdziarz/2008/01/english_for_dummies.html

I want to be good, is that not enough?

 

[xwb]

I was told that you are only really fluent in a language when you can argue using that language. Since I hardly argue with anyone (my arguments last about 3 sentences), I'm probably not fluent in any language

 

[LizSara]

I think the definition of argue in that case is not the same as fight...so i'm definitely fluent in English

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"Whoever battles with monsters had better see that it does not turn him into a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. ~ Nietzsche"
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[CajunCenturion]

Thanks Ken, that's a good article. I agree with the author; the dumbing down of language to serve the masses serves neither the masses, nor the language.


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[LizSara]

however, the author seems to be saying that anyone who doesn't speak at a certain level of RP english is beneath her (or at least not as academically minded) while it is actually the case that the majority of people in the country use colloquialisms and abbreviation in their speech, now because they've 'dumbed down' their language but because that's what societies do. Look at the best selling Teen Speak book that was around at Xmas for an example of the localised evolution of language.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Whoever battles with monsters had better see that it does not turn him into a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. ~ Nietzsche"
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[Welshbird]

I can certainly write in succinct English, flowery English, children's English and Business English.

I speak in Wenglish of course. Boyo.

Fee

The question should be [red]Is it worth trying to do?[/red] not [blue] Can it be done?[/blue]

 

[LizSara]

I speak Marmaset...it's like Somerset but furrier

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Whoever battles with monsters had better see that it does not turn him into a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. ~ Nietzsche"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> the author seems to be saying that anyone who doesn't speak at a certain level of RP english is beneath her
As I can see that, but I don't think that's the intended message, or at least it's not the message I received. I read it as 'we're better than that', or at least we could be. We don't need to drop to the least common denominator, nor should we. There is a richness in our language that is there for everyone to enjoy. Why should we dumb ourselves down and settle for mediocrity when we're capable of more?


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Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[LizSara]

I read it as 'we're better than that',

Better than what thogh? There's nothing wrong with evolution of our language at a local level and the author of the article seems to be implying the opposite.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Whoever battles with monsters had better see that it does not turn him into a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. ~ Nietzsche"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> Better than what thogh?
Better than mediocrity. Better than reducing the communicative abilities already existing through the use of language. Better than reducing your vocabulary to the local limits.

I grant there is nothing wrong with local language evolution, but not as the expense of the richness and power of existing language. Such local evolutions should be treated as extensions to the language, not as the new standards from which to judge.

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[jerryreeve]

When I was in the Air Force one of my jobs was to write a training manual. we had been given directives from the AF that when writing documents for officers we were to write to the 12th grade level and for enlisted to the 8th grade level. the specific rule was write 4 grade levels below your subjects education level. one of the reasons is that some of the graduates from a course level have only learned to 4 years below that level and we "must not leave anyone behind"

Glad I got out of that job!!!

----------------------------
JerryReeve
Communications Systems Int'l
com-sys.com

 

[ESquared]

Let me ask you all a question.

Do you think that the word "smarmy" is one that I could reasonably expect people to know? And if not, is my use of it proof that I am being nasty in some way, intentionally trying to use words that my listeners don't know to prove my superiority?

I used this word with a friend once, honestly not realizing that not everyone knew it. His response was exactly that.

 

[KenCunningham]

I know what smarmy (often followed by git in my experience!) means, but don't think it's a particularly unusual word in that I would expect most of my peers to know too. That said, it is (possibly) a word used by the older generations and has probably been replaced by some other word in the modern idiom.

Personally I always think it's a wonderfully descriptive word - reminds me of hair gel at the barber's for some reason!

I want to be good, is that not enough?

 

[LizSara]

I have no idea what smarmy means but i've used it plenty of times. i think of it as a bit like slimy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Whoever battles with monsters had better see that it does not turn him into a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. ~ Nietzsche"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[KenCunningham]

Indeed - unctuous! The Scots (or at least I'd never heard it before coming here) also have a word, 'slather(ed)' that I find particularly pleasing to say, as in 'slather that taost with butter, please', meaning to spread the butter as thick as possible.

I want to be good, is that not enough?

 

[Remou]

Surely you mean

'slather that tao[red]i[/red]st with butter, please'

 

[KenCunningham]

Oops.

I want to be good, is that not enough?

 

[Michael52x]

Smarmy" is what you call a stuck-up person who gossips a lot.
In localized "lingo", it is basically convienent jargon that is recognized by others in the area. A lot of different phrasings become corrupted to some extent when used in other areas, but usually remain the same.
We take "Britishism's" and use them to suggest pomposity, and ever so painful contriteness. As others take our "Americanism's" and use them to express contempt for our colonialism.
What we have, here, is not a failure to communicate. But a verbiage deficiency.

"Impatience will reward you with dissatisfaction" RMS Cosmics'97

 

[KenCunningham]

That's not what I recognise as the definition of 'smarmy'.

To me it is an overly-attentive, even oleaginous manner (which I suppose is where I get the hair-gel thing from) of someone out to suck up to the powers-that-be in any given context.

I want to be good, is that not enough?

 

[sha76]

I'd go with Ken's definition, but I'd extend the sucking up to anyone who they can use to their advantage. The word conjours up an over-gelled, over-aftershaved car saleman in my mind.

"Your rock is eroding wrong." -Dogbert