Fire you for little or no reason. 7

[Paul4Meep]

I live in the state of PA, and was curious whether or not anybody was aware of specific laws in PA (and other states, just out of curiosity). A friend and former co-worker was once telling me that a company is literally allowed to fire an employee for little or no reason. "You missed one day of work. YOU'RE FIRED!" "You were a minute late getting back from your break. YOU'RE FIRED!" "We don't like you and you smell. YOU'RE FIRED!"

Now, I thought there were labor laws and such that made it so that a company had to have cause to fire you. Not enough money (which is really more so a lay-off), gross incompetence, you do something really wrong, etc. I thought a company could get into legal trouble if they just up and fired you for little or no reason.

For example, if you called out sick for the first time ever in your two years working for a company, so they fire you, couldn't you seek legal action and wouldn't you almost definitely win?

 

[EBGreen]

Missouri is this way. It is called a "Hire & fire at will" or "Employ at will" policy. It goes both ways too. In such a state you have the right to just quick with little or no notice and there can be no legal repecussions (unless you explicitly sign a contract otherwise and even then I wouldn't be sure). If it were not at will employment then you would potentially be liable to litigation for quitting a job that you didn't like.

The labor laws as far as I know only protect you from being fired because of your protected class status (i.e. Sex, Race, Religion, etc).

[red]"... isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway?! I mean, all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you are good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick[/red]

 

[sleipnir214]

I think you are confusing that which is legal with that which is actionable.

My own state, Louisiana, is defined to be an "at-will" state. This means that unless you have an employment contract or are a Civil Service employee or something, your employer can legally fire you at any time for any reason -- in fact in Louisiana, your employer doesn't even have to give you a reason for your firing. But this also means that I don't have to give him n weeks notice or anything -- I can legally just walk off the job.

However, just because the firing was legal doesn't mean that the firing isn't actionable. The rules in civil courts are a lot more nebulous, so there are often other sets of rules under which you can sue.

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[EBGreen]

That is a good distinction between "legal" and "Actionable" sleipnir.

[red]"... isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway?! I mean, all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you are good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick[/red]

 

[Paul4Meep]

Wow. Now that sounds crummy to me. I mean, say you make one little mistake that is not a big deal by any normal human being's standards, and you weren't even aware was a problem, this means the company could just fire you like that.

A co-worker once told me she got in trouble for using her computer's CD ROM drive to play music. NOWHERE in our company policies did it say this was not okay. She told me they said to her "We're not going to fire you..." She said the way that they brought it up (and just even the fact that they did) seemed to imply that it was an offense they considered reasonable grounds for termination.

I mean, doesn't that sound crazy? This was an act that caused no harm to the computer, no harm to her or anybody's ability to perform their job, and was not even forbidden in our extensive policies.

 

[sleipnir214]

Paul4Meep:
Now you're confusing "legal" with "ethical".

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[Paul4Meep]

No, no, I understand now. I am just saying that's really wrong. I realize, now, that it actually is not illegal. It sure as heck is unethical, though.

 

[monkeylizard]

TomThumb hit on something at the top that I want to jump back to; The protected classes. We had a round of layoffs that ripped through a lot of administrative support positions. It just happened to be that all but one of the employees in this list were over 50 years old. Rumor around here has it that one of the names was changed to include that one younger employee from an older one in a similiar position because they realised how it would look. There was no age discrimination, but any decent lawyer could have made a case of it had the company not tossed in the 20-something year old too.

In a "right-to-work" state it's actually safer for the employer to NOT tell you why they are firing you if it's for some petty reason like your boss thinks you're ugly.

On a side note, if you work for an employer that makes you feel like you will be fired at any time for no good reason, I'd say it's time to start surfing monster.com

Monkeylizard
If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith. -Albert Einstein-

 

[Paul4Meep]

Well, unlike my former co-worker, I don't really believe my company is going to go around firing people for no good reason. Then again, I don't know. He had a lot of absences, but also had medical reasons for that. Aren't medical problems a protected category. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thought you couldn't fire folks for medical problems. Then again, I'm the guy's friend, and it seemed to me as though he did kind of test the limits, so maybe they are perfectly within legal rights to give him the ax.

 

[EBGreen]

It depends. The Americans With Disabilities act says you can't fire someone due to their disability unless accomodating the disability causes and undue burden for the employer. The Family Medical Leave Act says that you can take off up to 12 weeks iirc for medical problems without your employer firing you for it. They don't have to pay you for the 12 weeks of course and they can make you use your sick time and vacation to cover as much of it as they want.

[red]"... isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway?! I mean, all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you are good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick[/red]

 

[LFI]

Also, a fired worker, perhaps illegally let go, might have a case, but would he or she necessarily have the time, money, and gumption to pursue it? That person might feel the best use of their time is in search of a new job since they wouldn't particularly want to go back to work someplace where they're obviously not wanted. I'm sure a lot of people are "illegally" fired every year in situations where the employer is gambling that the now-former-employee will just go away.

--Dave

 

[langleymass]

Companies can and will fire for whatever reason they see fit. They do whatever they want.

 

[dgillz]

Companies can fire anyone for no reason whatsoever, and they are not required to give you a reason. In fact, I was taught never to give anyone a reason why if I fired them. I was also taught to have good documentation of why I fired them, in case any litigation came about i.e. discrimination lawsuits.



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[chiph]

The need to have good documentation of why you fire someone is often why a company will have a probationary period when performance is substandard. They aren't using it to help the employee improve their performance, but to document their failings in great detail to have evidence in any potential legal action. BTW: I've never seen anyone recover from going on probation.

I would say that people should regard employment not as a lifetime job, but simply a long-term contract. As a contractor, the company can ask you to leave at any time with no reason given. It seems like full-time employees need to realize that it could happen to them, too.

Chip H.


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[Glenn9999]

We want to put you on probation."

Translation: "We want to fire you and are looking for a better reason to do so."

Usually the universal meaning I've encountered.

 

[franklin97355]

Why would you expect a company to do something that is not in their best interest? If you hired someone to clean your house and every time they came they did something that annoyed you would you keep them on? Same deal.

 

[langleymass]

Actually one of my friends did survive getting put on probation, back in 1999 or 2000. He didn't find out that he had been placed on probation until months later. He is still with the company although there have been a few mergers, changes, etc.

 

[pmonett]

I've worked in France and I have been fired there too - twice. The first time I was young and innocent, and I fought it out in court. I won the case, since I got my untaken vacation days paid, but I got no damages and I didn't go back (not that I wanted to). The second time it was an "economic" layoff, the kind where they undermine the department for six months, then lay off half the personnel citing economic reasons. I was older and much more experienced, so I shrugged it off and found work elsewhere.
France has a very employee-protective legislation, yet I have heard (in the news) of companies being dragged to court for laying people off without reason. These companies still prefer to pay the fines and stay of rid of the person - with reason or not.
Seeing how this works (or not) in France, I can very well believe that making ANY sort of mistake in a "hire or fire" environment can result in unpleasant consequences.

Pascal.

 

[Paul4Meep]

Thanks, everybody, for your input. LookingForInfo, you do make a good point. I can imagine that many people would rather not bother with the time and expense that would be involved with a law suit even if they did have the grounds for one. DGillz, this actually slightly surprised me. I've never been FIRED yet myself (I don't give companies a reason to fire me) but I have once been laid off when I was a temporary worker only, and the company could not afford to keep any of their temporary workers. I know why now. The company went out of business not too long thereafter. Also, I thank God every day that they did not have the money to keep me, because it was a horrible job and I found a much better one anyway.

Wait... I got a little off track. LOL. My point was, from people I know who have been fired, they always seem to be either told, or given written documentation of the reason(s) they were fired. Maybe it just depends on the company, though. I've also never been on probation. Again, I never give a company any reason to put me on probation.

Franklin, I agree with you, but that isn't really the point of this thread. It was about when a company fires somebody for little or no reason (in other words, I'm talking about an extreme case that probably doesn't really happen very often, such as a company firing a star employee for taking a first sick day in their three year career there). If you think about it, when a company fires somebody for little or no reason, it actually does not benefit them at all. They lose somebody who may have been a darn good employee, then they just have to fill the position with somebody else, likely a person they don't know, who will take a while to get up to speed, and may end up being a real loser, unlike the person they unfairly fired.

Pascal, if you wanted to be technical with it, you could technically say you were only fired once. An economic lay off is technically a lay off, not a firing. Usually, when you are laid off, it is not for personal reasons, or because you were inept, or something. Usually, it is because the company could not keep you whether they wanted to or not (most often for economic reasons, or some kind of change that makes the job obsolete). ;-) LOL. Okay, so at the end of the day, you no longer have a job either way. Still, a lay off at least gives you a chance to feel better about yourself, and looks better if a potential employer should ask why you no longer work there.

 

[Glenn9999]

It was about when a company fires somebody for little or no reason (in other words, I'm talking about an extreme case that probably doesn't really happen very often, such as a company firing a star employee for taking a first sick day in their three year career there). If you think about it, when a company fires somebody for little or no reason, it actually does not benefit them at all."

Those actually do happen. I have a whole plate of horror stories from a local company regarding their IT staff and stories like this. To make two of the stories very short, one woman got fired for eating a piece of candy on job and another GROUP of people got fired for conferring on a problem. I think this was what you were going for? But the company is in an at-will state, so this stuff is perfectly legal.

Coincidentally, when I am looking for work, I steer a wide berth away from this company and others like it.