Tek-Tips is the largest IT community on the Internet today!
Members share and learn making Tek-Tips Forums the best source of peer-reviewed technical information on the Internet!
-
Congratulations strongm on being selected by the Tek-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!
Division 17
- Thread starter Kwick18
- Start date
daronwilson
Vendor
We see it in a fair amount of specifications, but I havent heard of anything final yet. Might want to review for some of the latest.
It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com
It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com
- Thread starter
- #3
daronwilson
Vendor
The limited applications that I have seen work well for me. Normal routine for us is to bid the entire electrical section. If they break out div 17 in the specs, that section ends up on my desk and I bid the specific telecom stuff while the electrical estimator does his part. It does mean that I can bid tighter and better than him in general, gets us in the door better.
However it has not grown to where it should be. In my opinion, it should contain specific needs for the customer and usually does not. One health care facility I work with is a good example. Their architect drew where the phone and data drops went (in his opinion) in a clinic, copied some things in for backbone cabling and conduit from some similiar job, and put it out to bid. I provided the I.S. guys a 6 page specification document that talked about standard compliance, certified installers, specific model numbers of panduit parts they were already using, testing procedures, etc. The IS folks took that to the Architect and said "this is what we want". The architect said that would cost too much money and add to the over all project price. So, they excluded all the phone and data and I did it all on a time and materials basis. Good for me...silly for them.
I think it is a great idea, but the architects have to understand they don't know enough about this field to spec it. They SHOULD employ someone to go directly to the I.S. folks and find out exactly what they want. Then it should be run by a qualified designer so that they get a standards compliant system that integrates exactly with what they already have.
Someday....
It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com
However it has not grown to where it should be. In my opinion, it should contain specific needs for the customer and usually does not. One health care facility I work with is a good example. Their architect drew where the phone and data drops went (in his opinion) in a clinic, copied some things in for backbone cabling and conduit from some similiar job, and put it out to bid. I provided the I.S. guys a 6 page specification document that talked about standard compliance, certified installers, specific model numbers of panduit parts they were already using, testing procedures, etc. The IS folks took that to the Architect and said "this is what we want". The architect said that would cost too much money and add to the over all project price. So, they excluded all the phone and data and I did it all on a time and materials basis. Good for me...silly for them.
I think it is a great idea, but the architects have to understand they don't know enough about this field to spec it. They SHOULD employ someone to go directly to the I.S. folks and find out exactly what they want. Then it should be run by a qualified designer so that they get a standards compliant system that integrates exactly with what they already have.
Someday....
It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com
- Thread starter
- #5
I get so tired of the cabling being an after thought and trying to retrofit the infrastructure around everything else. Cabling, at least what I've been involved in, is the last thing to get worked out. I hope that architects soon use the cabling professions at the drawing board and not at the job site. Installations will be much better and everyone gets what they want and need.
daronwilson
Vendor
I'll preach my part.
#1 - raceways. Cabling will change, almost always, so even if you do it all right when you build or remodel, there will probably be a need to change it. SO, we need these architects to focus on raceways and access so that we can recable when needed.
#2 - Architects. Wow, these guys. My hunch is they want to keep the price down because it looks better on the initial pitch. THEN everything that they missed and has to be changed is a change order, and they get a percentage of that so they get paid anyway, but it looks like the customer got a good deal by the starting price. I'm almost ready to accuse them of deliberately leaving things out so they can look good, knowing there will be many change orders that they get the percentage of.
#3 - Customer. The customer has got to start demanding that it is a turn key system to their specifications. The customer needs to be savvy enough to get the architect to get them what they need.
In my role, this is a perfect place for me to drop in. If the customer is willing, I like to drop right into the design stage and be the customers representative. I can tell the architect what the customer wants and needs, if he can draw and spec it, everyone can bid on it.
One thing I am seeing more and more though is that the customer has a preferred vendor (which i like to be me) and they want to use him for continuity on their facilities, previous knowledge of their operation, etc. So, they just allow the specs to have raceways in them and then they hire their own preferred vendor to do the cabling. It takes a lot of control away from the general contractor though, so it's a pinch there.
Oh well, always something to strive for.
It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com
#1 - raceways. Cabling will change, almost always, so even if you do it all right when you build or remodel, there will probably be a need to change it. SO, we need these architects to focus on raceways and access so that we can recable when needed.
#2 - Architects. Wow, these guys. My hunch is they want to keep the price down because it looks better on the initial pitch. THEN everything that they missed and has to be changed is a change order, and they get a percentage of that so they get paid anyway, but it looks like the customer got a good deal by the starting price. I'm almost ready to accuse them of deliberately leaving things out so they can look good, knowing there will be many change orders that they get the percentage of.
#3 - Customer. The customer has got to start demanding that it is a turn key system to their specifications. The customer needs to be savvy enough to get the architect to get them what they need.
In my role, this is a perfect place for me to drop in. If the customer is willing, I like to drop right into the design stage and be the customers representative. I can tell the architect what the customer wants and needs, if he can draw and spec it, everyone can bid on it.
One thing I am seeing more and more though is that the customer has a preferred vendor (which i like to be me) and they want to use him for continuity on their facilities, previous knowledge of their operation, etc. So, they just allow the specs to have raceways in them and then they hire their own preferred vendor to do the cabling. It takes a lot of control away from the general contractor though, so it's a pinch there.
Oh well, always something to strive for.
It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com
DToolsDesigner
Instructor
FYI....In Draft 4 of the CSI Master Format, it is known as Division 26 for Communications.
As of this time, it looks like the final will be out June of 2004.
As of this time, it looks like the final will be out June of 2004.
- Status