Dealing with condescending inconsiderate 'developers' 2

[pelajhia]

Howdy. I hope my subject line isn't too off-putting.
I am a developer myself, at least I used to call myself that back when I was coding in c/c++ and running around in on unix boxes.
Now I mostly develop reports, but most people don't think of this as real development and in a lot of ways you don't have to get quite so nitty-gritty with the 1's and 0's.

Long and short of this question:
I work for a company which uses primarily contract developers, and in dealing with these people I find that the vast majority of my questions are dealt with in the following ways:
1. ask why I am taking the approach I am taking and then suggest other avenues which won't offer the result I am after.
2. prefer to just do the work for me for $ reasons or thinking it will be quicker/easier than explaining some part of their database to me.
3. Consistently and obviously assume I do not know what I want or need or how to do even the most basic of data processing.

I am sure some of this stems from my own presentation of myself, I often do assume that these folks know more about their specific area than I do, THAT IS WHY I AM ASKING THEM QUESTIONS. I do not understand why there is an immediate assumption that I don't even know what a database is when I am asking questions about materialized views, etc. Arg.

Surely some of this post is venting, but I really do want to know if others in semi-dev positions often run into this and if so how do you keep your cool and just deal?
Thanks.

 

[SQLSister]

Arrogance can only be successfully dealt with by smacking the person down hard (verbally of course, real hitting not allowed no matter how much you want to.) People like this only respect strength.

Your presentation may be the problem. There is a real difference between:
"uh... can I bother you a minute. I'm stuck on this problem with the database.”

And
“I need to display the customer orders in a report but the relationship between the customer table and the orders table is unclear to me. What field is the foreign key?”

You don’t say if you are male or female, but many women tend to use a questioning tone on all their statements. This leads men to believe they are unsure of what they are talking about.


Questions about posting. See faq183-874

 

[chrissie1]

I don't like people who brag that they are tipmaster of the week. ;-)

But to get back on topic. Yes I have noticed it aswell those developers that think they know everything and that you are that stupid user that finds all the bugs they have in their program. And how do I deal with those kind of people? I tend to be verry patient because they must not be very smart themselves. And I know how they feel. And sometimes I loose my patience and that is mostly the last time we see them again. Developers like you and me are there to help people not look down on them, It's because the users we have a job, no users no programs. Think about we see users as a pest, but they are the best thing that happened.

pfff, that felt good.

Christiaan Baes
Belgium

If you want to get an answer read this FAQ faq796-2540
There's no such thing as a winnable war - Sting

 

[Dollie]

I've actually responded to one developer: "Hey! Thanks for the suggestion on how to not talk to users. Your tone of voice is exactly what I need for a demo on how to not talk to customers and clients. Now then, do you think we can handle this problem or do I need to find someone who knows the answer?"

When they're condescending, they're not doing anything but impressing themselves. Sometimes it's up to the user to let the developer know that.

And yes, I can be pretty mean when it comes to someone treating me as if I'm some dumb broad.

 

[pelajhia]

These are great responses; thanks for the ideas/thoughts.

I have to admit I sometimes end up feeling like maybe I DON'T know enough to command the respect of these folks, but frankly that's not the point. I am not supposed to know everything they know and vice-versa.

 

[DoubleD]

pelajhia,
Read this post thread655-751711 for some insight into what might be going through the developer's head.

Whether you know you're stuff or not, developer's have no business being condescending. It's unprofessional and rude. We all deserve to be treated with respect, contrary to what some people may believe.

I am what I am based on the decisions I have made.

DoubleD

 

[SQLSister]

Frankly, if you feel like you don't deserve their respect, they will know it and act accordingly.

To get respect, first you must absolutely respect yourself. If you do, then other people's opinions won't matter to you so much and their poor treatment won't make you feel like you don't deserve respect.

From what you said, I bet you are a pretty good report writer. True? Then don't let the jerks convince you otherwise. When they act condescending to you, act condescending right back. Be pushy, stand in their space. Tell them what you need from them - don't ask. When they suggest dumb ways to do the report, then tell them that it is a stupid idea and why.

I suspect this behavior isn't natural to you. So how to get from where you are to there? The answer is to pretend. "Fake it til you make it" is good advice many times. Think of someone you know who is assertive to others and pretend you are in a play and that you are playing the part of that person. Script things out in your mind. Think of all the jerky responses you might get to a request and come up with a snappy comeback before you have the conversation. Rehearse at home if you need to.

Be aware that when you change your behavior like this that people will be mad at first. People who get assertive for the first time often shock the people they are dealing with and they resent it. Oh well, so sad too bad. This is the new you and they will learn to cope. It ain't your problem.

Good luck.

Questions about posting. See faq183-874

 

[DoubleD]

Wow SQLSister!
Your posts are usually extremely insightful, and I admire most of your advice. In this instance I would have to disagree with you. You're suggesting that pelajhia stoop to their level.
It is a more difficult path, but taking the time to communicate your needs and being polite will eventually pay off. If they propose a solution that does not work for you, thank them for that option, but then explain to them why they're solution may not answer your user's needs. Do not suggest that they or their ideas are stupid. It will only create anymosity and then noone wins.
Take the high road, it may take a little longer, but you will feel better about yourself and have created a better work environment.

I am what I am based on the decisions I have made.

DoubleD

 

[jen89]

Before you respond too defensively to the developers, think through how you are presenting your questions to them. I am currently dealing with a frusterating situation with a coworker.

1. ask why I am taking the approach I am taking and then suggest other avenues which won't offer the result I am after.

This is exactly what is happening to me, except I am the developer. I originally developed a system, but haven't touched it in about 18 months. The person who maintained it left our company, and a new person was hired. This person asks me questions, and gets frusterated and angry if I ask any questions to clarify the problem, suggest different approaches, or get more information. A developer may or may not have all of the information at his fingertips to answer your question directly. By asking you why you took your approach or suggesting other ideas, they may be going through the troubleshooting process, not challenging you. In my case, I haven't looked at the program in a year and a half. I cannot spout off an answer to a question without a little research and some questions. The manner of this other employee makes me want to pull my hair out and yell "If you already know everything about how to make this work, why the heck are you asking me questions!" It is hard to deal with someone who asks me a question and then rejects everything I say rudely. I am not omniscient, and although I may know more about something than someone else, that does not mean I can always answer immediately based on the facts that they give me initially.

In addition, the developer may not know where you are coming from, experience-wise. Be sure that you are asking specific questions and giving feedback when they try to help you. In my situation, due to the way the new employee was talking, I was under the impression that he was more knowledgeable than me, and was seeking information about the system, not about how do a fairly simple task. As a result, I explained too briefly. From the feedback I got, I realized this, so I explained again in a different way for someone who wasn't familiar with databases at all. This time, I undershot and explained it with too much unnecessary detail. Finally, I found the level where he was at and explained there. It is not possible for someone who is answering your question to automatically know where you are coming from. He needs your feedback to know how to answer your question properly.

As for your point on them consistently prefering to do the work themselves to save time, make sure that you are catching them at a good time. It can be frusterating to try to go into a lot of detail on a problem if there is a looming deadline or a major production bug that the developer is dealing with.

None of these things are excuses for acting condescending! Nobody should treat anyone poorly based upon what they are working on. However, be careful that you are not being too sensitive, or contributing to the problem.

 

[SQLSister]

I took a course once in dealing with difficult people and one of the things I learned was that when people are pushy jerks, the only way to get them to back off is to push back. Some people only respect aggressiveness. I'm not suggesting anyone do this to everyone, only the ones who are behaving badly. Once you have shocked them out of believing you can be cowed, they will usually behave better in the future.

Alpha dogs don't have to enforce their authority very often because the other dogs have accepted that authority. Watch a bunch of horses in a field when a new horse is put in. They are very aggresive to each other until they establish a pecking order. It isn't being nasty, it is establishing your position.

When someone is rude to me, I don't feel any compunction about being rude right back. People like this get their way because people won't be rude to them in return. Someone telling me outright that my way is dumb doesn't deserve to be treated with respect either. No need to be abusive about it, you don't have to hit him. But a person like this won't respect a polite response. Maybe calling him stupid was an exagerration of what you should do, but I never feel guilty about escalating to the same level that person is treating me with.

I learned alot of this from training horses, too. If you respond immediately to a horse who is pushing the limits and are very firm, then the horse will listen to you. But if you let him get away with things and are not firm, then he will not. The more a horse has gotten away with things in the past the harder you have to respond to get respect. And if he has gotten away with this stuff with you for a long time, he may take multiple corrections. If you have trouble being assertive learning to ride is a great way to learn how.

Questions about posting. See faq183-874

 

[DoubleD]

I am inherently an aggressive individual. (Alpha male in most situations, work and personal.) I've learned to curb my aggressiveness, and appreciate the input others have. In my experience, forceful pushback tends to create a negatively charged atmosphere.
I agree that with animals and children a pecking order needs to be asserted and maintained to ensure discipline. However, I feel much more respect will be gained by working to communicate with an aggressive individual than by attacking them, even verbally. I would also agree that there are extreme cases where one might have to resort to aggressive behavior, but I feel it should be a last resort.

I am what I am based on the decisions I have made.

DoubleD

 

[LFI]

I think there are probably two types of aggressive people. There are those that, unfortunately, "are just that way" and then there are bullies.

Those in the former category need gentle reminders ("you're doing it again") and coaching on how to behave. I have heard many stories of people in that category who came around eventually. They say things like "I can't believe no one ever belted me!" and are generally pretty likable people!

Bullies break down further into two categories: the sociopaths and the power-hungry/cowards. The sociopaths tend to hang out in our grade school playgrounds and, as they grow up, in their home town drinking establishments... not in offices. If you ever identify one in your office, give them a wide berth!

You can further break down the power-hungry/coward/office bullies into two categories: temporary and permanent. The temporary ones are usually new to an office and come in thinking they're going to change everything and no one's going to stand in their way. Usually, they run into a wall made of the collective wills of everyone else and realize they can't do things that way, which is really fine by them because they don't play the bully role very comfortably anyway. SQLSister's method of talking back to these people is the type of behavior that makes these people see the light. IMO.

The permanent bullies are the ones that are rude to everyone until someone is rude back. That someone gets their "respect" and usually becomes safe from the bullies fire, but the bully isn't totally squelched like the temporary bully is. Again, these people respond best to SQLSister's way of handling office-aggressors. Again, IMO.

So, I would agree with SQLSister's approach in particular situations. It is not always easy to tell what situation you're in, however, so proceed with caution!

--Dave

 

[SQLSister]

Good points Dave.

I also was somewhat stronger in my advice because I have learned from teaching people that if you want someone to do something that is outside his or her comfort zone, you often have to tell them to over correct to get them to make even a tiny change. In riding terms, if youwant someone to situp straight rather than leaning forward, you have to tell them to lean backward to get them to sit up straight, because straight feels so abnormal to them. With some people you have to practically beg them to lean all the way back to the horse's back to get them to move more than an inch or so. You want somone soft-spoken to speak up, you often have to ask them to yell.

Questions about posting. See faq183-874

 

[KenCunningham]

SQLSister:

I learned alot of this from training horses, too. If you respond immediately to a horse who is pushing the limits and are very firm, then the horse will listen to you. But if you let him get away with things and are not firm, then he will not. The more a horse has gotten away with things in the past the harder you have to respond to get respect. And if he has gotten away with this stuff with you for a long time, he may take multiple corrections.

Same goes for kids in my experience!

 

[SQLSister]

And adults for that matter. Often it is true that you get what you expect. You have to set boundaries. Most people will respect them and only cross your boundaries one or two times because until they cross them, they don't know where they are.

Some people don't recognize other people's boundaries at all and will continue to push them until you give in. With these types of people you have to push back and you have to push back every single time they push your boundaries. You give in even once and the whole round of pushing boundaries starts all over again as they try to push even further. With the worst of these people you have to shove back harder than they pushed before they will recognize your boundaries.

The absolute worst is when these types of people are the senior management and they know there is no way you can push them back harder without getting fired yourself and that there is no one higher than them in the organization who will support the person they bully. I work in a situation like this right now and the only option left is to find another job. As soon as I do I'm outta here.

Questions about posting. See faq183-874

 

[Onyxpurr]

How about you give them the benefit of the doubt and say,

"Maybe I'm not communicating myself clearly enough. I am familiar with x, y, and z. However, I have a an issue with a, b, and c and was hoping you could point me in the right direction. I thought perhaps I could handle it best with yada, yada, but since you have more experience in this area I thought I'd tap into your knowledge."

This has worked wonderfully for me in the past, as well as on me. I've been condescending to my husband when he asked for help in the past without realizing it. As soon as he mentioned it, I was glad he did so I could correct myself and we could work together.

 

[DoubleD]

Star for Onyxpurr!
That is an excellent way to address the issue. You've communicated your level of understanding, your needs, and made them feel valued and important. People will be much more likely to help you using this tactic.

SQLSister,
I understand your viewpoint, but I have been fortunate enough not to run into the truly obstinate individuals you have had the misfortune of dealing with. Good luck finding a healthier work environment.

I am what I am based on the decisions I have made.

DoubleD