If that isn't clear--I've got a hub in the wiring closet, into which some machines in other rooms are supposed to eventually connect. Those machines are plugged (with straight through cables) into wall jacks that have been run to a 110-block in the wiring closet, and punched down. The @$%&#!# contractor was _supposed_ to have punched those wires into a properly bridged 110-style patch panel, so I could just patch them to the hub, but apparently something got lost in the work order. I need to get things up and running quick, so while I wait for the patch panel to get in, I figure I can cross-connect those station-side wires to some pigtailed Cat5 patches. I wasn't expecting to have to do so, and thus don't have any C5 blocks or a 5-pair punch tool with which to seat them. Can I just punch the pigtails over the existing wires? If so, should I cross the wires over, or do a straight-through punch? Thanks for any advice?
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Cross-connect on 110 block w/o C5 blocks
- Thread starter svsvc
- Start date
You will have problems with doing this. The 110 blocks are not designed to hold more than one wire. The other wire will not hold and then pins will not be able to displace the insulation. Most patch cords are stranded wire also that can not be terminated on the block either. Hope this helps you.
P.S. You may be better off just putting crimps on the ends and plugging into the hub. Chuck Berg
Performance Telecom
chuck@performancetele.com During Hours
me@chucks-web.com After hours
P.S. You may be better off just putting crimps on the ends and plugging into the hub. Chuck Berg
Performance Telecom
chuck@performancetele.com During Hours
me@chucks-web.com After hours
TouchToneTommy
Vendor
If you're saying that the Cat-5's are punched onto the 110 Block base, without ANY C-4 or C-5 clips on top of them, NO it won't work, any way/any how!
The 110 base only holds the conductors in place, its the C-4 clips that have the IDC contacts on the Bottom and Top. When you seat the C-4's, the bottom IDC's connect to the conductors of the Cat-5, and when you use a patch connector or punch a jumper, the top IDS's make the connection.
BTW, I'd use C-4's instead of C-5's for 4-pair cables, so the color code lines up with the cables. Use c-5's for 25 pair cable.
The 110 base only holds the conductors in place, its the C-4 clips that have the IDC contacts on the Bottom and Top. When you seat the C-4's, the bottom IDC's connect to the conductors of the Cat-5, and when you use a patch connector or punch a jumper, the top IDS's make the connection.
BTW, I'd use C-4's instead of C-5's for 4-pair cables, so the color code lines up with the cables. Use c-5's for 25 pair cable.
- Thread starter
- #6
Heh. I discovered when I got on-site that the "110-block" was actually a 66-block (which is nothing like a 110 patch panel, so I have NO idea how the original contractor could have misunderstood the work order so badly). I had to redo the original punchdowns because they were done in the most bizarre way imaginable (for four sets of cat5, all of the blues were punched down to one row, all of the oranges to the next, etc., so that the blue from one wire was bridged to the blue from another station-side wire, etc.). Once I got past my initial befuddlement and confirmed for myself that there was no rational explanation for the setup, though, it was relatively straightforward. (I'm not thrilled to have had to punch down cat5 on a 66-block, since I'm fat fingered enough that I probably ended up violating spec for number of twists while trying to get those wires in place, but it probably won't matter for this setup.) Thanks for the comments (even though they were for naught 
)!
)!Sounds like the contractor was attempting to bridge the lines for voice. i.e. 4 phones with lines 1 thru 4 bridged on all phones. Cheapest/quickest at this point would be to pull the wires from the 66 block and terminate them on 4 jacks. Then just patch the 4 jacks into your hub/switch. -CL
On punching down C4 or C5 blocks
". I was able to use a regular 110 punchdown tool to seat the clips onto the block, recently. You just have to workt down evenly, alternating ends."
This is the HARD way. The easy way is to simply hit the center of the C4 or C5 with a hammer. Practice makes perfect and Your Mileage May Vary but it works GREAT for me (if you cannot drive a finish nail without making a mess you might have difficulty). Using a hammer removes any need for using a punchdown tool for installing a 110 block until you start connecting to the top of the C4 or C5 blocks.
On deciding to use C4 or C5's
"BTW, I'd use C-4's instead of C-5's for 4-pair cables, so the color code lines up with the cables."
110's are designed for a maximum of 20 cables with a maximum of 100 pairs. Unless you want to drive yourself crazy each cable will start at one of the "color ticks" on the 110 frame. It makes NO difference if you use C5's or C4's on 4 pair cable, the colors will match up. Using a C5 on 4 pair will leave a empty position on the right (slate pair)of each C5.
"Use c-5's for 25 pair cable."
Or for 5, 10, 20, 50 or 100 pair... Any configuration that includes a slate pair needs a C5.
". I was able to use a regular 110 punchdown tool to seat the clips onto the block, recently. You just have to workt down evenly, alternating ends."
This is the HARD way. The easy way is to simply hit the center of the C4 or C5 with a hammer. Practice makes perfect and Your Mileage May Vary but it works GREAT for me (if you cannot drive a finish nail without making a mess you might have difficulty). Using a hammer removes any need for using a punchdown tool for installing a 110 block until you start connecting to the top of the C4 or C5 blocks.
On deciding to use C4 or C5's
"BTW, I'd use C-4's instead of C-5's for 4-pair cables, so the color code lines up with the cables."
110's are designed for a maximum of 20 cables with a maximum of 100 pairs. Unless you want to drive yourself crazy each cable will start at one of the "color ticks" on the 110 frame. It makes NO difference if you use C5's or C4's on 4 pair cable, the colors will match up. Using a C5 on 4 pair will leave a empty position on the right (slate pair)of each C5.
"Use c-5's for 25 pair cable."
Or for 5, 10, 20, 50 or 100 pair... Any configuration that includes a slate pair needs a C5.
- Thread starter
- #9
> Sounds like the contractor was attempting to bridge the
> lines for voice. i.e. 4 phones with lines 1 thru 4
> bridged on all phones.
I thought of that briefly, but none of the cross-connects were punched down, so it would have been two phones bridged together and two other phone bridged together, which made no sense.
> Cheapest/quickest at this point
> would be to pull the wires from the 66 block and
> terminate them on 4 jacks. Then just patch the 4 jacks
> into your hub/switch.
It's been a couple of years since I've done cabling work, and I was originally expecting to just have to patch some cables in, so I didn't have any of the equipment that I should have had--including no spare jacks.
> lines for voice. i.e. 4 phones with lines 1 thru 4
> bridged on all phones.
I thought of that briefly, but none of the cross-connects were punched down, so it would have been two phones bridged together and two other phone bridged together, which made no sense.
> Cheapest/quickest at this point
> would be to pull the wires from the 66 block and
> terminate them on 4 jacks. Then just patch the 4 jacks
> into your hub/switch.
It's been a couple of years since I've done cabling work, and I was originally expecting to just have to patch some cables in, so I didn't have any of the equipment that I should have had--including no spare jacks.
MasterRacker
New member
Before pulling any of it apart, take some good close-up pictures for documentation. I'd think about trying to get some of your money back since that doesn't sound like a termination that serves any kind of useful purpose.
Jeff
Working in IT is like trying to commit suicide with a very small hammer ....
Jeff
Working in IT is like trying to commit suicide with a very small hammer ....
daronwilson
Vendor
Interesting discussion, I too would like to see pictures of that installation if you took them. I certainly hope you held your 'contractor' responsible, it sounds like your contractor is not experienced in this type of work or installation.
On 110 blocks...next set I open up for an install I'll look at the sheet that comes with it, somehow I don't think it will recommend a hammer for installation of the modules. As with many products, we all develop preferred methods for installation that work well for us. I tend to lean towards the manufacturer's recommendations, so I'll do some research and see what I can find out.
I have a slightly different opinion on "110's are designed for a maximum of 20 cables with a maximum of 100 pairs". I am not sure what they were designed for, but before we commonly used 4 pair, we used 3 pair and C3's. With three pair, that gave us 8 per row for a total of 32 cables. As we started using 4 pair, that gave us 6 per row for a total of 24 cables. I suppose if you were terminating 5 pair, 20 would be the max per block. When I buy 110 block 'kits', they come with 20 C4's and 4 C5's if they are designed for 4 pair termination. When I buy 110 block 'kits' for 100 pair, they come with C5 modules. Terminate the things however makes you happy, but I believe 24 cables (4 pair) is the way the kits were designed, and it provides the maximum density for cable termination.
66 Blocks....I would suggest to keep the twist tight, that you bring the pair in one 'slot' in the block, and punch the tip up, and the ring down. It is a little tricky and takes some practice, but, you can keep the twist much closer on each pair than the traditional method of splitting the tip and ring between slots in the side of the block. 66 Blocks are certainly not my preferred choice, however, if you use them be sure the blocks are rated at the level appropriate with the performance you desire from your installed wiring system.
Always more than one way to skin a cat
It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com
On 110 blocks...next set I open up for an install I'll look at the sheet that comes with it, somehow I don't think it will recommend a hammer for installation of the modules. As with many products, we all develop preferred methods for installation that work well for us. I tend to lean towards the manufacturer's recommendations, so I'll do some research and see what I can find out.
I have a slightly different opinion on "110's are designed for a maximum of 20 cables with a maximum of 100 pairs". I am not sure what they were designed for, but before we commonly used 4 pair, we used 3 pair and C3's. With three pair, that gave us 8 per row for a total of 32 cables. As we started using 4 pair, that gave us 6 per row for a total of 24 cables. I suppose if you were terminating 5 pair, 20 would be the max per block. When I buy 110 block 'kits', they come with 20 C4's and 4 C5's if they are designed for 4 pair termination. When I buy 110 block 'kits' for 100 pair, they come with C5 modules. Terminate the things however makes you happy, but I believe 24 cables (4 pair) is the way the kits were designed, and it provides the maximum density for cable termination.
66 Blocks....I would suggest to keep the twist tight, that you bring the pair in one 'slot' in the block, and punch the tip up, and the ring down. It is a little tricky and takes some practice, but, you can keep the twist much closer on each pair than the traditional method of splitting the tip and ring between slots in the side of the block. 66 Blocks are certainly not my preferred choice, however, if you use them be sure the blocks are rated at the level appropriate with the performance you desire from your installed wiring system.
Always more than one way to skin a cat
It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com
More cat skining...
I *AM* sure you will not find any mention of the "hammer method" in the installation instructions. However it works, and it works well if done correctly. I dare say it works better than the "side to side method" with a regular punch-down tool. One good FLAT hit to the center of the C4 will seat all the little ears over the bumps and does not damage the C4.
I guess if you really needed to get the density up on a 110 due the lack of space you could terminate 100 single pair on a 110 (with C1's?). It would be a bit difficult to label, but hey, look at the space we are saving. I go for 20 cables max on a 110 since the backframe is color coded at 5 per row and it makes labeling easier. Personal preference... Unless you start screwing up the pair colors on the tops of the Cx's where they don't match the wire colors, then we fight!
66's - BOO, HISS, old technology, best remembered, not for new data installations.
I *AM* sure you will not find any mention of the "hammer method" in the installation instructions. However it works, and it works well if done correctly. I dare say it works better than the "side to side method" with a regular punch-down tool. One good FLAT hit to the center of the C4 will seat all the little ears over the bumps and does not damage the C4.
I guess if you really needed to get the density up on a 110 due the lack of space you could terminate 100 single pair on a 110 (with C1's?). It would be a bit difficult to label, but hey, look at the space we are saving. I go for 20 cables max on a 110 since the backframe is color coded at 5 per row and it makes labeling easier. Personal preference... Unless you start screwing up the pair colors on the tops of the Cx's where they don't match the wire colors, then we fight!
66's - BOO, HISS, old technology, best remembered, not for new data installations.
daronwilson
Vendor
>I guess if you really needed to get the density up on a >110 due the lack of space you could terminate 100 single >pair on a 110 (with C1's?).
I'm not sure I understand why one would terminate single pairs on the back of a 110 block, nor have I seen any C1's, but IF that opportunity arose, I would rather have ONE 110 block with 100 pair on it than TWENTY 110 blocks with a single pair on each blue set of the C5's.
As for labeling I use a computer program that dumps it out on my printer for 1 pair, 2 pair, 3 pair, 4 pair, 5 pair or whatever I want the label to read. If you have 100 pair cable to terminate on a 110 block, you have to use small fonts and not be too verbose.
As you are most certainly aware, most of the telco stuff was implemented in groups of 5 due to the multipair cable structure and groups. Even though 66M blocks have a little notch separating each group of 5, most folks still manage to punch down six 4-pair wires on each side with no trouble.
66 Blocks - certainly not my first choice, however they do provide an acceptable method of terminating cables to Cat5 standards if done correctly.
It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com
I'm not sure I understand why one would terminate single pairs on the back of a 110 block, nor have I seen any C1's, but IF that opportunity arose, I would rather have ONE 110 block with 100 pair on it than TWENTY 110 blocks with a single pair on each blue set of the C5's.
As for labeling I use a computer program that dumps it out on my printer for 1 pair, 2 pair, 3 pair, 4 pair, 5 pair or whatever I want the label to read. If you have 100 pair cable to terminate on a 110 block, you have to use small fonts and not be too verbose.
As you are most certainly aware, most of the telco stuff was implemented in groups of 5 due to the multipair cable structure and groups. Even though 66M blocks have a little notch separating each group of 5, most folks still manage to punch down six 4-pair wires on each side with no trouble.
66 Blocks - certainly not my first choice, however they do provide an acceptable method of terminating cables to Cat5 standards if done correctly.
It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com
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