Color Swatches -- switching from CMYK to RGB

[doodler22]

I created a newsletter that uses 2 spot colors (PMS 1795 and PMS 293). In my swatches palette, there are 2 icons next to the color -- one indicating the spot color and the other is either CMYK or RGB. The PMS 1795 has the spot and CMYK icons. The PMS 293 blue has the spot and RGB icons. This set up works fine for my print vendor because he's ripping the job as spot colors.
However, when i make this doc into a pdf to put on our website, the PMS 293 blue is coming out more purple with the RGB icon. I can't find a way to change the RGB to CMYK.
When I try to reload the swatch, I get: Duplicate swatch name already exists in the document. Swatch is not added.
I'm unable to delete the swatch -- it's used throughout and in linked objects. I can't change the color mode or do anything with this swatch.
Suggestios??

 

[Ekwoman]

Sounds like the color came in with a linked (probably Illustrator) file. You'll need to change the color mode in Illustrator and it will update in InDesign. If it didn't come in with a linked file, then you should be able to double-click on the color in the Swatches palette and simply change its color mode.

If it's jus the PDF proof that looks wrong and you just want the PDF to look good onscreen, then have InDesign convert to RGB when you export (color settings in the export dialog). It'll look right onscreen...convert to CMYK for printing a proof.

 

[jmgalvin]

Since it's used in linked objects, it's sort of locked. I'm guessing that, somewhere, you inadvertently changed the pantone to an rgb. A pantone is always cmyk. If you change a pantone to rgb, the name won't change unless you allow that. If there aren't too many objects, you might try finding whach has the rgb color in it.

The easiest thing to try for the web is to go to the advanced tab in the pdf export and pick RGB as the color mode. See if that looks any better. CMYK is useless for websites anyway.

Using OSX 10.3.9 on a G4

 

[doodler22]

There are quite a few illus. images but I'm going to try anyway. For printing it doesn't matter because the printer is printing it as a spot + black. It's my web-guy that's giving me a hard time.

The problem with the CMYK/RGB thing is that we print the newsletter using traditional offset printing (PMS + black), then a pdf is made and put on our website for people to download. My web-guy wants the pdf to be rgb but I think it should be cmyk. If people are printing it on their home or office printers since they can't print in rgb. Suggestions on what to tell him or how to explain this? I think it's ridiculous to change all my pdfs to rgb. However, if you compare 2 pdfs - one with CMYK and 1 with RGB, the blues don't match -- one is more purple than the other.

 

[jmgalvin]

He's right. 99.9% of all printers use rgb color mode, The ONLY printers that use cmyk are postscript ones, whcih are rare and becoming more rare. If something is meant to be printed on rgb printers it should be in rgb color mode or the colores will appear washed out.

Monitors only work in rgb. CMYK means nothing to a monitor. Monitors do not recognize spot colors and change them to rgb. Ther is also no way to control the way color looks on all monitors, They all have differnet brightness and they all have different contrast. They have differnet white points and gammas settings.

You will always have color shifts between monitors and commercial print. That's why pantone publishes its books - so you can see what the final printed product will look like.

You will also always have color shift when going from cmyk to rgb and back. A 42, 56, 12, 32 cmyk might end up as 223, 122, 88 rgb but when you bring it back to cmyk the numbers might be 44, 58, 10, 34. That's the nature of the beast. However, if you used teh same color scheme, rgb or cmyk, throughout the doc, the same color value (or pantone number) will appear the same whereever it's used..

Using OSX 10.3.9 on a G4

 

[doodler22]

I'm confused. If 99% of printers use rgb, then why does my Canon inkjet (my printer at home) use CMYK ink?
I thought all desktop printers, whether inkjet or laser were CMYK. I've never seen RGB inks.

 

[Ekwoman]

Printers cannot print in RGB, since that is transmissive color (or subtractive...add all colors of light and you get white...add all colors of pigment and you get black or dark brown more accurately)...that's why monitors and scanners work with RGB color spaces. If a printer works in RGB mode, in means that the printer is doing the color conversion at print output...bad idea. You should do the color shift further upstream...I mean, where would you rather have the color shift handled, the RIP, a high-end software program like InDesign, or your $150 US ink jet printer?

You are right...your printer is using CMYK.

Try working in InDesign with color management off, export a PDF, telling it to convert the color to your destination and that destination is RGB. Your PDF will look more like you're expecting. Great for web usage. If that person downloads the PDF, and prints it, either the color conversion will happen within Acrobat or their printer will convert it. Either way, their settings will determine the output and most people who have downloaded something from the web are not expecting magazine quality prints. Onscreen your blues should look right. When you tell the PDF what to do with the color, it's changing all the values to RGB anyway, so no need to fix it in your document. Hope that helps.

 

[doodler22]

Since I'm creating this document for traditional offset printing first, I need to work with the color management so I can spec the colors properly. Can I turn it off at a later point, then export as a pdf the way you suggested?

 

[apepp]

...your desktop printer wants rgb data which is then converted in the printer to print out cmyk...

...unless you have a postscipt rip and postscript compatible printer your inkjet printer will happily churn out rgb data...

...the printers themselves are indeed CMYK printers. The drivers, however, are designed to take RGB input. This is then converted to CMYK. If you feed an Epson driver CMYK data, it first converts it to RGB and then back to CMYK. The CMYK->RGB conversion is crappy at best. You'll end up with interesting colors, albeit not the ones you intended.

A simple test to see what data type a printer driver uses is to send a CMYK file. Make two boxes in Photoshop. Fill one with C=Y=M=0, K=100. Fill the second with C=Y=M=100, K=0. The first box will print as black. If the second does as well, your printer expects RGB input. If the second box prints as an ugly brownish mess, your printer expects (or at least handles) CMYK input.

Why this works: In an ideal world, equal amounts of cyan, magenta, and yellow create a neutral color. Full saturation of the three should make black. Given that this is the real world, you need black ink to create real blacks. If your printer driver converts CMYK to RGB and then back to CMYK, both boxes get mapped to R=G=B=0 which in turn goes to C=M=Y=K=100 (or sometimes simply K=100). If your printer accepts CMYK input, no such conversions are performed. Without any black ink, the C=M=Y=100, K=0 box will not be black.

Andrew

 

[doodler22]

I'm so used to working in CMYK for traditional printing -- I worked at a service bureau for years. This RGB stuff is confusing. Anyone know of any good sites to learn more info about RGB?

 

[jmgalvin]

This stuff is basic. All you have to do is hit Print for the indd doc. With your little inkjet selected as the printer, go to Output tab and you'll see that color is listed as rgb with no way to change to cmyk. You can also preflight the thing and look at the print settings - your printer will be listed and output will be listed as rgb.

You need a ppd (read Postscript Printer Description) to be able to print cmyk.

As Apepp said, just because the ink in the machine is cmyk does not mean that the machine runs in the cmyk color mode.

Using OSX 10.3.9 on a G4