Citrix-reasonable amount of users & apps for 2 servers

[bigheas537]

I realize that my subject is vague, but I have too many unanswered questions from my vendor to agree to their 'blind faith' solution proposed to me.
My vendor has proposed a Citrix solution with the following details:

Hardware
2 Compaq DL360 dual 2.4 GHz w/1Gb Ram & 2ea. 36.4 Gb SCSI HD's each running W2k SP3 Server.

2 Cisco Catalyst switches (one for each building which are connected with fiber. The switches will also provide gigabit connectivity between switches)

Each box will be configured with terminal services licenses and Citrix XPa. Currently, we are running NT4.0 for shared file access and SCO Unixware 7.11 for db access to their app via telnet. They require we move to a domain controller to complete their setup. The reason for Citrix will be to allow us to use their GUI client via a Windows desktop which will pass through to the UNIX box. Telnet will only run the modules in their software which has not been ported to Windows yet. The domain controller will be upgraded to W2k SP3 or Win 2003 Server. I'm not sure which at this time. I am configuring our network to allow up to 40 users which includes our remote offices which currently access our main office via VPN over broadband.

My question is this:
Suppose their application provided by these two servers will cause the Citrix servers to run at a constant 30% CPU load. Can I not also run Office 2000 or Office XP apps as well on these Servers as well? Mostly, I wish to setup Excel spreadsheet access to as many as 30 users at any given time.

Their response is that this will not work and are trying to add two more servers on the bid. Our hardware & software requirements for this bid are already approaching $60,000.00 for this change and I would like to be able to provide application access to what we choose since we will own the system once installed.

Also, is it possible to load balance with this version so that I can provide 40 licenses spread across both servers for failover protection? Note that I am not looking to create an automatic failover, but simply wish to mirror the information across both servers so that if one fails, the users can connect by specifying a primary and a secondary server in their config or by manually logging to their secondary.

Maybe someone can tell me how many users they have seen connected to two Citrix boxes with client access to a database plus excel spreadsheets without serious throughput degradation.

All responses are gratefully appreciated.

 

[Ashaman074]

Really hard to tell without knowing the specifics of everything you are trying to do.

However, based on what you are saying it doesn't really sound like the demand on these machines will be that great...you are pretty much wanting to run one database app, correct? 4 servers seems like overkill.

I hate to suggest the obvious, but have you asked for proposals from competitors? The first time I dealt with a Citrix "Gold Partner" we wound up getting screwed. Fortunately it wasn't near the amount of money you are talking about, but it definitely taught me to check around!

FWIW, we run 10 users on a server with dual P-III 850s & 1G RAM. It has been in use for 3 years now, cost ~$2000 at the time. It runs a ASA SQL server for all users as well as several other applications.

Two servers would be necessary for redundancy of course, and the licenses will pool. 4 processors at 2.4Ghz sounds like a lot of power though, and it seems like you would need more RAM. 1 Gig sounds anemic!

Without knowing the details though, my initial opinions aren't worth that much. I would put more value in quotes from another company (obviously without them knowing anything of what the first has suggested). If they come out similar; then great!

 

[JohnTcolo]

Don't think you need 2 more servers. Be sure to use load management. We have 2 Citrix servers, 1 a bit stronger than your Compaq, the other much weaker.

We have about 10 published apps: Navision is the biggest cpu hog, also Excel, Word, Outlook, IE. Excel averages about 5-10 users, Outlook about 20. We also have a GPS app that has about 8 users. And finally a complex app that does accounting, fleet dispatching and manufacturing processes.

We average about 30 concurrent users. We also have 3 remote locations coming thru a frame. Two have 128k bandwidth, the other 256. My servers run at way less than 50% usage on average. Did not work nearly so well until I got in and really tweaked the apps for Load Management.

 

[Frankenherder]

MS office products are very stable in Citrix. 2 servers should be fine.

What I would do is install Office on one server with your Unix client and leave the other one with just the Unix client. That way is Office does cause a problem, you still have 1 server with your (I assume) mission critical app available.

Also, RAM is so cheap these days, I would go for 1 GB per processor.

Matt

 

[CitrixEngineer]

Sounds similar to my first ever project

The UNIX client used a tiny amount of resources, and I got nearly 200 users running very happily on 2 quad servers each with 4Gb RAM. I know now that that was overkill - especially with the price of RAM 7 years ago!

When it came to using the Windows port to the UNIX back-end, it was a different story - the front-end was written in VB - and it was a nasty resource hog.

The moral; TEST every single application you plan to roll out in a controlled environment - ie one where you can monitor the effects of an "unknown" app (anything that's not MS Office). There you can get a good idea of how it's going to hit your live environment - you could even run the app from a single server and get all users to run it until it crashes. There's nothing wrong with a few worker guinea-pigs - live server "guinea-pigs" are more costly to replace/rebuild.

I would suggest going for all 4 servers. Then you can load-balance your Office apps for high availability, take Frankenherder's suggestion of running the Unix client on a 3rd until you have good benchmarks - then use all 3 live. In the meantime, configure the 4th identically, and use it to test any new applications, or front-ends to that UNIX client. It may seem like a lot of outlay now, but it will provide returns.

I hope this is useful



CitrixEngineer@yahoo.co.uk

 

[JohnTcolo]

To follow up on CitrixEngineer's excellent comments, you can best test these applications by using the Resource Manager for Citrix XPe and up or using the Systrack tool from Lakeside software if you are XPa or 1.8. That saved us a ton of analysis time and guesswork when we were upgrading. There is a trial version available and well worth considering.

Good luck.

 

[CitrixEngineer]

In answer to the question we seem to have skipped over, XPa does indeed provide Load-Balancing (or Load Management, as Citrix call it these days).

I agree with JohnTcolo - if you're going for XPa over XPe, then consider SysTrack - version 3.1 particularly offers a great range of reporting abilities.

CitrixEngineer@yahoo.co.uk

 

[bigheas537]

Greetings,
Sorry I didn't follow up on my own post until now, but I've been quite busy with my projects at work other than the network upgrade. I certainly do appreciate all your help and will apply your advise as best as I can. I did see posts on the net about app load management & pooling licenses and the like since I posted this. Since I'm so new to this network model, I'm sure you can understand my confusion and natural distrust of taking what my vendor says as gospel. Again, many thanks. I'll continue to watch this forum as I'm sure I'll have more questions when the install is done and what looks like considerable tweaking will need to be done. Now, all I have to do is figure out Microsoft's open licensing program and I'll be all set. See ya on the top side