Can you ever trust the Search in Windows 7 ? 1

[aking]

First of all i must say please don't reply and tell me 'tick the box for show all files and folders' - i've tried that.

Background: I recently upgraded the office workstations from XP to Windows7. Since then i've had difficulty with the new windows search. Today i gave up on it and downloaded SearchMyFiles - which solved the problem in about 30 seconds. BUT, i would still like to be able to use windows search as I am a sysadmin and am always on new machines.

Today i was looking for a file with 'op_' in the name somewhere. I already have files and folders with those names in the c:\users\appdata folder structure and in c:\program files. I knew the file I was looking for would also be called 'op_' (it's a log file) so i searched on 'op_' throughout the whole c drive. But no files at all came up with windows search!
Next I selected a folder underneath 'appdata' where i knew there were some 'op_' folders and searched again then sure enough it found the 'op_' folders, but when i focused on any folder higher then it says '0 items'.
A search function that only finds files or folders when you are already in the right folder? - This can't be right?

I have tried the search trouble-shooting, I have 'show hidden files, folders and drives' selected on the View tab. I have 'Always search file names and contents' and 'Don't use the index when searching in file folder for system files' on the Search tab.
I have read a lot of threads - I'm amazed at windows search - i think it is appalling from a sysadmin point of view. In fact at the moment i think it is not fit for purpose.
I have also read other unresolved threads where people are trying to use windows search on hidden files and gave up (like me) and used something else.

Does anyone know a way of tweaking Windows 7 search so that it can find hidden/system files and that it really searches hidden/system folders and is this a way that you would trust in a production environment?

 

[PRPhx]

Have you tried Google? It IS your friend. Try using these keywords: windows 7 search options.

Using windows 7 search requires a bit more work perhaps, but it DOES work.

Also look up windows aqs (Advanced Query Syntax).

 

[DrB0b]

Not sure if this will be of any help to you but its atleast something to look at if you are doing alot of searches with Win7:

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/desktopsearch/technicalresources/advquery.mspx

"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver...

 

[aking]

Have I tried Google? Yes PRPhx (isn't that the first place to look?).
I posted this question here after looking in a lot of places. I've read a lot of threads with answers exactly like that. i.e. 'Windows search does work, look it up on google'.

I am specifically asking how to search for hidden, system non-indexed files using windows search - i don't think it can be done. And i'm specfically asking any other sysadmins who might be out there and might have to do the same kind of tasks that i do if this can be done reliably with windows search. I don't think it can. If I'm wrong then I'll be glad to be proved wrong but it will take a bit more than telling me it works in block caps.

Thanks DrBob, i checked out those options. Lots of good options - but kind of confirms what i thought - windows search is aimed squarely at users. For instance in properties of files where are the properties 'hidden', or 'read-only' or 'system' ?

How can you use windows search for system maintenance? If any sysadmins out there have mastered this i'd be really interested in knowing how.

 

[DrB0b]

I dont know what the good having to install a program on each PC you go to when you need to do a search is but here is an alternative: (is 64 bit version)

http://download.cnet.com/GrepWin-64-Bit/3000-20432_4-75338324.html

I have been told you can do this to eliminate the indexing and it will make it work but can cause other issues:
1. Click Start then Right-click Computer.
2. Choose Manage.
3. Along the left side, expand Services and Applications.
4. Click Services and you will see a list of services shown in the center pane.
5. Scroll down to Windows Search.
6. Right-click it and choose Properties.
7. Set the Startup type to Disabled.

I know you probably already know this but after turning on Show Hidden Files and Folders, you can search with the * to find file extensions if you know what extension it is. Granted this is a horrible idea if you are searching for *.ini or *.dll files cause there is a billion of them.

"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver...

 

[aking]

Thanks for that - is this GrepWin any good? Do you use it?

I had it this morning with windows search - i've been trying to like it since last week - i went and got SearchMyFiles - and i've been very pleased.
It was startling - SearchMyFiles found the all-important log file i was looking for in about 90seconds. I had spent the morning trying to get windows search to find the same file. I am willing to concede that maybe after some amount of time building indexes of all the local drives windows search might be able to find the same file. But in terms of getting work done on a busy windows network (and keeping users happy) there is no contest between them.
Yes i think some of it comes down to indexing - i will try one workstation with no indexing and see how it goes.

The problem i had this morning was to find a file in about 20GB where all i knew were 3 of the characters in filename - in IT terms that is a trivial problem that should take seconds to solve. I couldn't do this with the default search tool. I could do this in all previous versions of windows and I assumed it was one of the cornerstones and would be a feature that would always be protected.

 

[DrB0b]

Yea, from what Ive heard/seen, they are trying to gear this more toward the standard user instead of the IT crowd that have to use and troubleshoot with the search. IMO, having to go about the steps to remove the old index and have it reindex just to pick up a file that has been there for months is a waste of precious time. They got it right in the server versions of replication, being adding to the other machine whatever wasnt there from the previous check, wish they could have applied that logic to the search.

"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver...

 

[linney]

For machine wide searching you might have to look at extending your Indexing Options to cover all the folders otherwise searching may be slow.

You can also look at setting Search Options, Control Panel/ Folder Options/ View/ Search.

This is from Windows 7 Help and Support.

"If you can't find a file, you can expand your search to include different locations. For example, if you're searching for a file in the Documents library, but you're not sure where the file is stored, you can search across all of your libraries or your entire computer. Here's how:

Click the Start button , and then click Documents.

In the search box at the top of the open window, start typing.

Scroll to the bottom of the list of search results. Under Search again in, do one of the following:

Click Libraries to search across every library.

Click Computer to search across your entire computer. (This way you can search for files that aren't indexed, such as system or program files, but remember that the search will be slower.)

Click Custom to search specific locations.

Click Internet to search online using your default web browser and your default search provider."



This might or might be useful.

Tips for finding files

http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/Windows/en-US/help/73106209-6df0-432a-8cb7-df5d8ce02ec61033.mspx

Windows Search.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/desktopsearch/technicalresources/advquery.mspx

In Vista if you look at the Taskbar and Start Menu properties where you Customize the links on the Start Menu, what have you got in there for Search? There are a couple of available settings in there to play with.

If you look at Organize/ Layout, and tick Search Pane, does that make Advance Search easier to find?

If you highlight a folder and press F3 does that show you an Advanced Search option?

When searching my small Network from Windows 7 I didn't play about with my current settings to make it include the various Network locations (which seemed possible via a Custom search), I just searched my machine and then a Networked machine as two separate searches. For me this was successful.

I am no great lover of Windows Search, and do use other search programs too.

Can't right click and search in Vista.... thread1583-1622176

 

[PRPhx]

Sorry, but I have no problem finding files using Windows 7. Hidden, System, or otherwise.

IF your searching for hidden files, why do you expect to find it/them. They are HIDDEN. IF you know the name of the file and the folder it's in, change the attribute.

 

[aking]

@PRPhx it's a major part of fixing some windows problems to work with hidden files. For instance when you install some programs some of the files installed can be hidden, likewise when you install windows some files are hidden. Ever had to fix a broken application? Ever had to fix a corrupt profile? This and many other tasks often involve working with hidden files.
I think we are talking on different levels. I'm a network administrator, i've worked with quite a few versions of windows. I'm asking about a feature of the latest version of windows. I describe what i'm doing to save time and to get replies from people who might be doing the same type of thing. If you read my first post then you'd know exactly what i did. If you really have no problem doing what i can't then why not post exactly how you did it? Caps locks (in my opinion) should be saved for making important points. Telling me that i should just change the attributes of HIDDEN files is kind of silly.

@Everyone Else. I think part of my problem was working on new installs of windows7. Perhaps this is something to do with building up the indexes? Searches straight after a computer has been built don't seem to work as well....
So here is where i've got to: To find a hidden or system file in a hidden folder (e.g. my old favourite appdata) I can run a search over C drive with the default option 'Always search file names and contents' - it takes over and hour but it does find it - sadly it's one of the last things it finds. Change to the option 'In non-indexed locations, search file names only' and the search is a lot quicker - under 5 minutes. But now when i set display to 'Details' I can't see the folder path. This time i've been looking for 'menu.ini' there are 3 in the list, i have to click on each one to find out which one i want - sigh.

I realise what i want is a windows search utility that scans filenames, can be prevented from searching withing files (for speed) and you can easily tell it to search every single file on your computer. Quick and inclusive searches are a must on any o/s for efficient administration. Thanks for all the links and tips but I'll stick with 3rd party stuff for now.

 

[PRPhx]

aking
All I can say is I'm glad your not my sys admin. I've worked with EVERY version of windows, not to mention DOS. Maybe you should re-read some of the websites that offer how to use Windows 7 search. It's not that difficult.

Do you even understand what a HIDDEN file is? It's not visible normally. Want to see it, use the ATTRIB command and unhide it. What's so silly about that???? Other than you not understanding the concept. And YES, index your drives. It may/may not work. Makes searching easier and faster. Also look at the TYPE: flag. And you DO know what they say about opinions, right? You need to do more research. Sorry, but I've seen too many posts showing how to search system/hidden files that actual work.

And using CAPS is also used to make a point. Learning how to use a tools DOES make things go faster. There IS a learning curve, you just need to get beyond it. Do your homework. Try different things. That's part of Admin's job (yes, I've also been an Admin, along with being a DBA, a programmer, and a software developer)

 

[flyboytim]

Windows Search is a poor compromise between "Run" and "Find".

Find was always a more definite term than Search - search offers less certainty of a successful conclusion.

No more point and click query builder, you have to know how to add search filters or a command-line syntax to find things within a certain date and size range etc.

"Run" had autocomplete - I could run diskmgmt.msc after typing the first 3 letters in XP - now I need to type it all to the last "c" in Windows 7. (I know Run is still there in Accessories, where's Search gone?)

Windows Search has autocomplete in that if I type as far as diskm I see 2 instances of diskmgmt.hl_ and 2 more of diskmgmt.ms_ as well as 2 instances each of 4 inf files... which leads on to the fact that if all instances of a given filename were found, there would probably be a good chance that all of the ones returned by Windows Search would all be the wrong ones, and the one you really wanted would remain obscured.

SXS could only have been invented by Microsoft, as an obfuscation device to rival the registry.

As a feature, Windows Search is a retrograde step and not in the Windows tradition in that it cannot be made to operate in the classic manner.

It should simply be an app that can be switched off, like searchindexing itself.

Whenever I see someone who is a PC and Windows 7 was their idea, I give them a hot cup of coffee in their lap, just to show how much I appreciate them.

Fortunately, Microsoft will be trashing Windows 7 in a couple of years time - I have a feeling that IE10 will be doing all the searching and file management by then with a Bing for your Fingers on the desktop. Excuse me while I wipe my chin and keyboard free of vomit.

 

[aking]

i have to agree with you flyboytim - i think the new search is an obfuscation device.

to PRPhx - i don't think we will agree on this. I hear your comments - i don't think they are very constructive. I made it really clear in my first post what i was trying to do, i've tested it on other machines and had colleagues test it - and get the same results as me. Have you even tried to replicate the scenario i've been talking about?
To me that's the point of these forums. Testing things, trying them out - swapping results. I'm just trying to get my job done.

Other comments back and forth between us are just a foolish waste of time.

 

[iolair]

I've been so frustrated by this that I do all my searches using the command line now. In my opinion, MS really blew it on this one.

Iolair MacWalter
Network Engineer

 

[jsteph]

aking,
I've used a tool called SearchMyFiles. It runs in x86 mode and may not be lighning fast--but whatever you're looking for-- including text-containing with wildcards, to/from dates, etc--it will find it.

I share the frustration with Windows Search--which came out in XP as "Search 4.0" and I couldn't revert back to the original search.


The new search was so bad, vaugue, unreliable, and ambiguous ("Search with public folders/search without public folder"?????) that I found myself even willing to put up with that stupid puppy dog character that I always shut off in XP's original search--Please, I'll put up with the stupid dog if I can just find the friggin files!

I was able to open a folder and stare at a non-system file, then open Search up as a test--and try to find the file I was staring right at--and search would come back empty! Not much more is needed to give it a big vote of no-confidence.

Anyway, the SearchMyFiles works well enough that maybe MS will buy it and incorporate it into it's next service pack of Windows 7.
--Jim

 

[jlockley]

Even resetting indexing options search seems hit and miss. Recently it is closing machine. Other thread for that, if I don't find it here. Agreed that Search in Windows 7 is nowhere near the efficient and useful tool of easier versions. (The option to search names OR content is sorely missed among other things.)
Thanks to those of you who have posted links to methods and alternatives.

 

[jlockley]

New discovery: I have Word Perfect X3 installed only because a) I am stuck with Paradox and b) we still get resumes in that format (would you believe it?). I have just found that WP has installed Corel quick Search, which is in the right click drop down menu for any folder or drive. It seems to function similarly to the old XP search interface. It does not, however, seem to allow either or searches for filenames/content, but perhaps there is a ay. I am not unhappy. (Finally something nice to say about Corel)
Jsteph - yes. I too would put up with the benighted puppydog/paper clip if I could have the old xp search interface back.