Cable Bundles

[Servamatic]

When running cables in cable tray or through the Telecomm room, do you bundle your cables, or just let them lay naturally in the tray?
If you do bundle them do you comb them out so they all lay perfectly in line with each other?
About how much time do you spend on this?
Do you ty-wrap the bundles?



Richard S. Anderson, RCDD

http://www.servamatic.net

 

[franklin97355]

If I'm installing a telcom switch I usually lace my cables to the trays and dress them up but for data I just try to make them neat. I will use cable ties to keep the bundles neat and flowing in controlled groups between the patch panels and the outlets as needed.

 

[daronwilson]

When in cable tray, we normally group them and loosely secure them at regular intervals. Once they drop into the data room, we try to comb them reasonably close to straight (removing all the twists) and then velcro them together loosely in bundles.

We don't generally spend a lot of time in the cable tray, I feel it is good practice to keep them neat and not tangled in the cable tray, but that is usually a few minutes every 10 feet or so after the cable is in the tray.

In the telecom room, we do spend more time to make them neat and organized. Generally we group and bundle them, securing them to the wire ladder with velcro ties. Normally we go thru a bundle of cable ties getting them laid down and to length. Then after termination, we go back and snip the ties and install velcro to secure the bundles.

Good Luck!

It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[3rc]

Daron ,I believe there should not ever be any twist,according to standards,kink damage,is kink damage whether you cover it up or not ,IT is my opinion based on experience that proper precautions should be taken to avoid twist.an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of BS ,

 

[buitenhek]

Dear Serv,
I am very much against the cable combing and cosmetic alignment strategies. In some previous threads I have suggested combing the outside layer of cables of a waterfall (into the MDF) to make it look neat but leaving the "inside" messy. Also any possibility of induced noise from side-by-side cables in a tray I try to avoid. How many 50+ pair cables do you see that are CAT5e and up rated? I have only used the CAT5 - 25 pair for zone wiring (many moons ago) and that was iffy at best.
This is only my opinion.
Regards,
Peter Buitenhek

 

[EdPorts]

In the tray... I would never comb them, unless asked for whatever reason. We usually velcro tie or zip tie, or occasionally put a band of electrical tape around the bundles every 6 feet or so to keep them together, and remove the possibility of a cable somehow sagging over the edge.

Now as far as when it enters the room onto the tray, ladder, or what have you -- sure, a little effort in combing them out will make your sales presentation photos a little better, but other than that... it doesn't do much for you. If you're using multiple colors for whatever reason, it can look pretty killer when you sort them all out and bundle it nicely, with velcro, and get them in straight lines... but other than that, I wouldn't do much more.

I still consider building a telecom room an art. You can see which guys care about their installs, because they do everything on straight, level lines, and keep everything extremely organized to the T, I can appreciate that.

 

[daronwilson]

I believe there should not ever be any twist

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I too would love it if there were never any twists in the wire. However, the little guy inside that box of wire manages to make it come out with a twist. Notice I did not say kink. The twist is from the lay of the wire when it is stored on a reel or in a box. When pulling multiple runs it sometimes twists around adjacent runs. I prefer to untwist that a bit and keep them loosly laying together.

Hope that explains it better.

It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[Jtodd]

Outside of the Telecom Room, I'll leave cable in a tray as it lays, especially in a closed ceiling (open ceilings, particularly in office space the asthestic requirements might be higher and addressed separately). In side the room, I'll bundle stuff together, usually separating voice and data early as the typically terminate in different locations. The number of total bundles depends on the number of cables, and the number of pulls because I'll usually bundle by the pull. So it's varried. As for combing, I've never done it. I'll work the cable by hand so that it looks clean, but I've never seen the benifit out side the looks, and the time involved isn't worth it in my opinion.
Also, I have been hearing more lately about 'alien crosstalk' particularly with Cat6. As mentioned in an earlier post, AXT (instead of NEXT) is when the signal from cable A is induced on cable B, not just pair to pair within cable A. I haven't seen anything absolute on it yet, but I have read and heard it mentioned. So, that's just another reason for me to not comb.

Justin T. Clausen
Physical Layer Implementation
California State University, Monterey Bay

 

[Servamatic]

Well Justin

You have hit on the purpose of my question.
Alien Crosstalk is certainly an issue, and one that CAN NOT be tested for. There are numerous reports regarding AXT, I am posting a couple of the better ones.
You will find that AXT can equate to a 4 - 6 dB issue on Crosstalk, which could negate a 6 dB margin for NEXT.

http://bwcecom.belden.com/college/Techpprs/ieacectp.htm

http://www.ittnss.com/files/whitepapers/AXTalk2wp.pdf

http://library.mobrien.com/manuals/pdf/understandutp.pdf

Beauty at the expense of performance is not a particularly good concept.
This is why I have stated in the past that just because you certify a cable, doesn't GAURANTEE it will transmit data. We as installers can do things that won’t show up on a Certification Tester but will show up when the cable is under heavy use.


Richard S. Anderson, RCDD

http://www.servamatic.net

 

[Jtodd]

Thanks for the links. Good refresher. The first one, from Belden, is one that I had seen before, just couldn't remember were. The third one wouldn't work for me though. Kept saying the pdf was corrupt or damaged.
Also like your statement:

Beauty at the expense of performace is not a particularly good concept.

Well said.

Justin T. Clausen
Physical Layer Implementation
California State University, Monterey Bay

 

[JBeav]

I hear you Richard, but this is -something that cannot be tested at the expense of beauty.

If performance came in the shape of a Yugo, nobody (few) would buy it. (no offense to Yugo owners). It's being sold a Yugo because it is built to achieve a top speed of 200mph when all most people ever really need to do is 65mph.

Beauty and peformance can/must co-exist. It will happen or or the copper people will submit to the fiber people, or the wireless people.

Jeff

 

[Servamatic]

Not saying you have to leave the cables in a mess.
Just don't bundle them in tight bundles, and don't wrap them so often. I see guys ty-wrapping every 6", and that is asking for trouble.
Heaven forbid you should have to replace a cable.
Now with the requirement to remove abandoned cables that alone is enough to convince me cable bundling should go the way of dinosaurs.

We don’t need to be sloppy, but we should be advising the customer that they are paying for performance, not beauty.

A Velcro strap every couple feet or so and cables loosely held together while not being combed would eliminate AXT.

I think it is obvious the theoreticians have figured out that combing and bundling UTP is a bad thing.

But I am one of those guys that thinks if you TRULY need Gigabit…install fiber to the desktop. Which would you rather do: Force a golf ball down a garden hose, or a fire hose? Besides, with fiber, who cares about Crosstalk?


Richard S. Anderson, RCDD

http://www.servamatic.net

 

[JBeav]

I thought that was the direction you were going. I've seen articles and heard of this in seminars and all the authors or presenters (usually salespeople or lab rats) summed it up with-no more neat dressing cables. This leaves so much for interpretation. There is a big difference between (subtly) changing our methods for dressing cable to throwing craftsmanship out the window to over come a phenomenon.

I think combing is different than bundling or using "bundled" or "hybrid" cables... cables that come with, say, multiple cat5e cables, tightly bound by string or in the same jacket. Bundled or hybrid cables make removal practically impossible. Furthermore, a cat5e cable will not test the same after it's been bundled. Combing and securing (adequately spaced w/velcro) can be kept to TRs while "bundled" cables are bound for the entire section.

On the need for gig to the desk top, I would also go with fiber.

Jeff

 

[Bobg1]

"I see guys ty-wrapping every 6", and that is asking for trouble."
Agreed...
Any ty wrapping can lead to trouble.
It is best to use velcro and avoid ty-warps all together.

 

[mikeydidit]

OK. I just have too guy’s. I use those 110 and Bix Parts and lace them to our cables because 66 are still the best…

Just kidding. We do not bundle our cables in the trays and we use Velcro to neatly sort them to the patch panels. The Velcro makes it really nice when adding more or new cables.



Mikey

 

[daronwilson]

Did someone say 66 blocks???

It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[Servamatic]

You are correct, "the way we have always done it" just doesn't cut it in many regards anymore.
I wish manufacturers would do more to educate the industry as they push copper to it's limits.
Actually, I wish more guys would actually take the time to read the standards, but since it is darn near impossible to get them without paying an arm and a foot....

Cabling Installation and Maintenance Magazine is a great FREE resource for information.


Richard S. Anderson, RCDD

http://www.servamatic.net

 

[Jtodd]

I agree. Though I think manufactures try to hard to 'educate' you on their solution, but true, they should try a little harder. Also, it seems like the manufactures are a little behind when it comes to standards training. Hubbell's HubClub is another good source, as well as their online seminars. But this last May (2003) they were saying that Cat6 hadn't been ratified yet. And there where other things that I knew weren't right. More like it was an old PowerPoint they were using and just hadn't updated it yet.
Personally, I try and take as much information from as wide variety of manufactures, so as to be able to wead outthe marketing, the hype, and the truth.

Justin T. Clausen
Physical Layer Implementation
California State University, Monterey Bay

 

[Servamatic]

If only everyone would try to do the same.
Admittedly, there is A LOT to take in, but thats what keeps things interesting.

Richard S. Anderson, RCDD

http://www.servamatic.net