Between or Among 2

[mscallisto]

Between you, me and the fence post" is a popular American saying, but should it be "Among you, me and the fence post"?

 

[Dimandja]

Use "between" when discussing two parties, and "among" when there are more than two: "Candies will be distributed between Jack and Jill, or among their classmates".

There are exceptions. When indicating a position or a relationship, always use "between". Examples:

1. His political views lie between...
2. The championship between ...

 

[mscallisto]

Yes I agree with you, and do know the rules, yet I'm amazed at how often this phrase is misused by everyone!

 

[SantaMufasa]

MsCallisto,

No more surprising than how often people use weak passive voice: For example, "Candies will be distributed between Jack and Jill..." or "I'm amazed at how often this phrase is misused by everyone!" <grin>

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)

http://www.dasages.com

Do you use Oracle and live or work in Utah, USA?
Then click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips.

 

[Stella740pl]

As per YourDictionary.com,

[b]Usage Note:[/b] According to a widely repeated but unjustified tradition, "between is used for two, and among for more than two." It is true that [i]between[/i] is the only choice when exactly two entities are specified: [i]the choice between (not among) good and evil, the rivalry between (not among) Great Britain and France[/i]. When more than two entities are involved, however, or when the number of entities is unspecified, the choice of one or the other word depends on the intended sense. [i]Between[/i] is used when the entities are considered as distinct individuals; [i]among[/i], when they are considered as a mass or collectivity. 
...

See

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/b/b0218800.html

for examples and more explanations.

I would say, that usage of the word in the saying "Between you, me and the fence post" is completely correct and justified.

 

[SantaMufasa]

Too bad that "YourDictionary.com" sets an atrocious example of writing in weak passive voice, thus reducing its credibility as a source of scholarly linguistics:

...a widely repeated but unjustified tradition...
...when exactly two entities are specified...
...more than two entities are involved...
...when the number of entities is unspecified...
...when the entities are considered...
...when they are considered as ...

No wonder we have trouble writing effectively, when a "literary standard" employs such weak writing methods.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)

http://www.dasages.com

Do you use Oracle and live or work in Utah, USA?
Then click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips.

 

[CajunCenturion]

Thank you Stella740pl.

One test that sometimes can be used to help determine is the entities are considered distinct or as a group is the 'competitive' test. "I had trouble choosing between the four finalists."

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[CajunCenturion]

SantaMufasa, I would like to discuss your comments further. I'm not sure that passive voice is being used, nor that weak literary methods are being used. Perhaps you like to share further thoughts as to why you think it's passive voice, and what other weak methods are employed, especially in your highlighted examples.

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[SantaMufasa]

Rather than turn this thread into a full-fledged walk in the weeds, perhaps we should consider a separate thread. I'll let you decide.

Passive voice occurs when a sentence implies the active "do-er" (or explicitly appears as the object of the proposition "by") and the "do-ee" (the object of the sentence action) appears where the subject should appear.

Since a passive-voice sentence either lacks an explicit "actor" (or appears as an afterthought in the phrase, "by <someone or something>"), great writers and authors avoid passive voice because of its inherent weaknesses when they compare passive voice to active-voice alternatives.

Examples of Passive-voice and Active-voice alternatives:

Passive: A good time was had by all.
Active: Everyone had a good time.

Passive: Passive voice should be avoided.
Active: Avoid passive voice.

Passive: I'm not sure that passive voice is being used.
Active: I'm not sure that the excerpt uses passive voice.

Passive: ...weak literary methods are being used.
Active: ...YourDictionary.com uses weak literary methods.

Passive: ...weak methods are employed.
Active: ...weak methods that the excerpt employs.

Passive: The suspect was taken into custody.
Active: Police took the suspect into custody.

In each case, above, active voice is much clearer, more powerful, more meaningful than its passive-voice counterpart. I also believe that the YourDictionary.com excerpt could only improve with active voice replacing its passive voice.




Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)

http://www.dasages.com

Do you use Oracle and live or work in Utah, USA?
Then click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips.

 

[CajunCenturion]

I know the rules for active and passive voice. My question is what makes the sentence,

According to a widely repeated but unjustified tradition, "between is used for two, and among for more than two."

passive voice?

How would you re-write the YourDictionary.com text?

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[sleipnir214]

That's my question, too. In "a widely repeated but unjustified tradition", I see nothing other than the object of a prepositional phrase.


And I'm having difficulty rewriting that YourDictionary.com usage note into active voice while maintaining readability.







Want the best answers? Ask the best questions!

TANSTAAFL!!

 

[CajunCenturion]

In answer to your question, a general discussion between active and passive voice deserves its own thread. However, if the discussion is limited to the YourDictionary.com text, then I think it should remain here among the posts in this thread.

Good Luck
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[SantaMufasa]

Yes, in my enthusiasm to indict YourDictionary.com's use of passive voice, my zealousness went one phrase too many...The other five examples are definitely passive voice, however.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)

http://www.dasages.com

Do you use Oracle and live or work in Utah, USA?
Then click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips.

 

[CajunCenturion]

Active and passive voice are not among my strengths, so I'm having difficulty categorizing any of these sentences as passive. I appreciate your insights.

Good Luck
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[SantaMufasa]

John,

Rather than contrive individual passive-to-active comparisons for each of the passive-voice infractions in the YourDictionary.com excerpt, I'm posting my re-write of that excerpt. My re-write transforms passive-voice instances to active voice without changing the meaning or intent of the excerpt:

Usage Note: According to a popular but baseless tradition, “Use ‘between’ for two, and ‘among’ for more than two.” It is true that ‘between’ is the only choice when specifying exactly two entities: the choice between (not among) good and evil, the rivalry between (not among) Great Britain and France. When more than two entities exist, however, or when the speaker does not specify the number of entities, the choice of one or the other word depends on the speaker’s intention: Use ‘between’ when the entities are distinct individuals; ‘among’ when they are a mass or a collection.

The active-voice version is stronger and more precise than the passive-voice version.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)

http://www.dasages.com

Do you use Oracle and live or work in Utah, USA?
Then click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips.

 

[CajunCenturion]

Thank you.

Good Luck
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To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Stella740pl]

Hey, guys, for what it's worth coming form a ESL person, I don't agree with the notion that passive voice should be avoided at all costs.

If it exists in the language, it is there for a reason, and it does have its place, and could be appropriate. Instead, many people treat any use of passive voice almost like a profanity.

English-speaking people were first taught how to use passive voice, than trained not to use it ever again. Of course, it is much easier to say "don't" to the students than to bring up the taste and the skills necessary to know how and where to use it correctly.

In the rephrased paragraph, I don't think "the active-voice version is stronger"; and do we really need it any "more precise"? Why should we scramble for precise word "speaker" if it could a writer, as well? What valuable precise information it adds to the phrase?

Or this example.
Passive: The suspect was taken into custody.
Active: Police took the suspect into custody.
It's OK on it's own, but in a story, the word could have been just used in the previous sentence, and the writer might have tried to avoid the repetition, while not adding any new info to the piece (well, police of course, who else would it be).

I would say that the first sentence in the rewritten paragraph is not clear, doesn't feel complete, and was better in its original version (sorry, SantaMufasa, nothing personal). I had to read it twice and stopped short, looking for something else that might follow, like below:

According to a popular but baseless tradition, “Use ‘between’ for two, and ‘among’ for more than two”, such and such was going on.

I will, probably, start a new thread on this, if no one else will, but not today.

 

[SantaMufasa]

I don't agree with the notion that passive voice should be avoided at all costs.

Stella, notice I have never said, "Avoid passive voice at all costs.". My suggestion is avoid passive voice. By definition, passive voice obscures the subject of the sentence, the "do-er". Any sentence that hides important information cannot be as precise or as useful as an explicit disclosure of the subject.

In the rephrased paragraph, I don't think "the active-voice version is stronger..."

...and that is certainly your choice. But one cannot suggest that the active-voice version is weaker than the passive-voice. So, if active voice is always equal to or stronger than the passive voice, I believe I will err on the side of active voice.


If, in some specific case, passive voice were stronger, more precise, more eloquent, than active voice, I would use the passive voice. And there have been one or two cases where I have gritted my teeth and used the passive voice for exactly that rationale...but you can't force me to like it. <grin>

(Passive-voice re-write: "If, in some specific case, passive voice were stronger, more precise, more eloquent, than active voice, then passive voice would be used. And there have been one or two cases where my teeth have been gritted and the passive voice was used for exactly that rationale...but I can't be forced to like it." <double-grin>)

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)

http://www.dasages.com

Do you use Oracle and live or work in Utah, USA?
Then click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips.

 

[Dimandja]

Great analysis as usual Stella! Can't give more than one star however.

 

[UniqueFD]

Dave,

Thanks for your very concise explanation of the difference between active and passive voice. This kind of information I hunger for. However, I struggled with your first sentence of the re-write for the same reasons as Stella. The 'according' seems to make the sentence hang (sorry, I have no technical writing background, so can't explain precisely what I mean). I would prefer:

[blue]A popular, but baseless, tradition asserts that we should, "Use ..."[/blue]
or,
[blue]According to a popular but baseless tradition, writers should , "Use ..."[/blue]

mscallisto,
I know the phrase as "Between you, me and the gate post" - a UK variant, perhaps?

Tony
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