Begging for a raise

[robmazco]

Or is it even my place to beg....

So Im moving on to another job mostly because of salary. Its a significant step up so cant pass it by.

In this day and age everyones counting their pennies, understandable even for the biggest of companies. As probably everywhere and where I work now, there have been many people let go. I understand this, its just business.

Should I have first approached them with my new salary requirements, is it incumbant on me to to have to do this?

Its my belief that it should not fall on me to have to ask/beg for more money. Is it not the place of those above me to have a handle on things like this? Also, I look beyond my direct report and his, Im talking about the ones higher up on the food chain. Both have asked for more money to be thrown my way at the end of last years wonderful reviews, they of course were turned down.

Ideas?

 

[SQLSister]

You don't get what you don't ask for. This doesn't mean they will give it to you especially if you had good reviews and did not get a raise. However, I've seen poor performers get raises by asking for them when better performers who did not ask didn't get. Do not predicate your request on the fact that you need need more money. Show your value to the business. Show where your duties have changed since your last payraise. A lot fo times companies find it easie rto give a payraise if you can get a change of title out of the deal (easier for the company to say you were promoted than to admit you were being underpaid).

"NOTHING is more important in a database than integrity." ESquared

 

[Noway2]

To play Devil's advocate with SQLSister's comments, the company is going to pay you according to their perception of your worth. If you were worth X to them before, why would you be worth Y to them now? Also consider if there would be ramifications if they offer you more money and you stay.

If you were severely underpaid, was it to the point that it was insulting? If so, would you even want to stay at a company that apparently perceived you as having so little value?

 

[CajunCenturion]

It's hard to say because every company is different. No one answer will work for everyone.

Some companies will be pro-active. They will take care of their staff and offer what salaries commensurate with perceived worth. Others, on the other hand, will try to keep payroll costs at a minimum and pay you as little as you'll accept.

The key for you is to recognize what kind of management team you work for. Are they people-oriented or profit-oriented? Most likely, they're somewhere in between? Before I would recommend any course of action to you, I would have to know about your work environment.

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[JCreamerII]

You have to do what is in your best interest. Most of the time you can make more money by switching to another position. Sometimes people only realize what your worth when your gone.

Jim C.

 

[tcsbiz]

Don't beg for it nor look like you're desperate.

You need to be in charge of your career. If that means asking for more pay, then go ahead and do it. However, you need to be able to justify it. Knowing the local and regional pay for your position will help you in your argument. Knowing whay you're worth to other organizations would help, too.

Contrary to what your belief is, the company isn't going to simply give you a raise without your asking. I think you may have done a disservice to yourself and the company by making that assumption.

Good luck in your new position.

 

[kmcferrin]

Never beg for anything (except maybe your life). If you're begging then you're admitting that you are in a position of weakness, which throws all possibility of negotiations out the window.

If you want a raise and feel like you can justify a raise, then by all means ask for it. Most companies won't just throw more money your way in a down economy. But if you can justify your raise then it will make business sense to give you one (which is still not the same as actually getting one).

As far as leaving goes, people switch jobs for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes it's because of the pay, sometimes it's due to a lack of opportunity to advance their career, sometimes it's because they can't stand someone that they have to work with, and sometimes it's because they have an amazing opportunity become available to them that they don't want to pass up. If you are thinking of leaving your current job, you need to ask yourself why you are leaving and what you are getting by leaving. If you could achieve the same result at your current employer (raise, promotion, change in working conditions) then it would be worth it to at least raise the subject with your current employer.

If your employer can make you happy and retain your services it's generally a win for them, as you are a known quantity and replacing and orienting a new employee is costly. It is in their best interest (and some would say that it is their duty) to retain qualified staff and leverage them to the best of their abilities. But sometimes that isn't possible or the employer isn't willing to do so. If they can't make you happy then by all means move on. Just bear in mind that if you move on you are moving to a potentially unknown situation with a new employer, and the grass isn't necessarily greener on the other side of the fence.

Here's the most unfortunate part of the situation though: you can get raises and promotions while working for a company, but your rate of pay increases will likely be much higher moving between companies than it would be staying with the same company. If you are making $60,000 a year you might only get 2-3% per year increase. Even if you acquire new skills that are in high demand where the average pay is $90,000 a year, the odds that your employer will bump your pay by 50% are fairly slim. They still tend to see you as the same person, even though they would be forced to make a more competitive offer to hire you than to keep you.

Even in larger companies that have strict pay bands you still don't make out well. If you are an outstanding employee and near the top of one pay band, a promotion to the next higher pay band will likely only move you to the bottom of the next highest rung (where the underperformers tend to congregate) rather than into the average or above average category.

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[kwbMitel]

I concur with CajunCenturion that there are too many variables to give sound advice.

That being said, kmcferrin has done a very good job of laying out the key factors. I applied it to my own experience and it is very accurate.

Example:
I was in your position 7 years ago. Undervalued, underappreciated, Above average reviews. I was headhunted by another company due to my reputation and offered 20% more pay to jump ship. I jumped, my previous employer offered cash for me to stay and I refused. My co-workers that stayed behind in the same role have gained somewhat on me but in 7 years I think I'm about $100,000 dollars ahead. There were other considerations in my case, but the $$$'s speak for themselves.

*******************************************************
Occam's Razor - All things being equal, the simplest solution is the right one.

 

[robmazco]

All good advice, thanks all.

In the end, my boss and his had lobbied for a raise/job title change with examples but they refused.

I guess my question at that point is, is it up to me now to goto their superiors with the same request.
I say no.

kwb's example does look like its gonna hit the nail on the head with my case. I am getting a significant pay increase.

 

[ousoonerjoe]

I wouldn't go any further up the ladder with your request. You've stated your piece. Simply let them know you have an offer on the table. They can either counter or it becomes your two week notice. It doesn't have to be combative, but you do need to be assertive. A lot of companies simply do not want to pay their people that much. It happens. We lost our net admin because of $5,000. The owners just didn't want to pay any more for the position. he now makes $15k more than he did and the new location is paying for his MS Certs.

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Bluto: What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? No!
Otter: Germans?
Boon: Forget it, he's rolling.
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[carp]

There are two times you have some leverage for salaries - when you hire onto a job and when you are leaving it. You've advised your superiors of your intent to leave and why. If the hierarchy does not understand how expensive it is to find your replacement and train them, or how valuable your corporate knowledge is, then there is little you can do. If the additional money offsets the effort of proving yourself at a new job, then it's time to go.

 

[SQLSister]

ousoonerjoe, it's been my experience that they don't want to pay the existing person more, but when he or she leaves they end up paying more for the new person than what the original person wanted. And often they get someone less experienced overall (and almost certainly less experienced with company specific knowledge) but end up paying them more.

"NOTHING is more important in a database than integrity." ESquared

 

[kmcferrin]

@SQLSister,

I agree. But it's because employers get stuck in a mental trap that person X hired in at salary Y and they're just not going to be worth that much more. Moreso, they believe that if person X was doing the job for salary Y in the past that they should be able to find someone else with an equivalent skill set for the same salary. Unless they are truly in touch with the salary market, looking at salary surveys, understanding the prevailing wage, they are likely to be very much shocked by the difference between what the position was worth 3-5 years ago versus today.

On top of that, a lot of times they just don't believe that someone would leave.

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[ousoonerjoe]

@SqlSister: Oh, I couldn't agree more. I've seen that time and time again, but the short sightedness of upper management often fails the logic of long term expenditures. From an HR standpoint, letting go an employee is very costly. COBRA payments, unemployment (varies by state), processing of final benefits, severance, not to mention the little things like changing access codes, re-keying the doors, etc. The loss to a company is a lot more than most people realize when an employee leaves the company (regardless of terms).

While the company is paying for the exiting employee, they begin to start paying for the replacement via want-ads and recruitment services. Then after they find the replacement, there's the 6-24 months of training and integration into the company procedures and policies.

For whatever reason, management tends to lose sight of all that when they refuse something as minor as $5,000. Just the first 4 months of COBRA will cover that. However, it is possible that HR may be the ones refusing the raise based on some other factors. If the employee was written up, or is 'borderline', you don't want to give them a raise either. Legally, the company would be setting themselves up for a lawsuit if they did that.

There are several reasons the company may not forgo the upfront pay raise, but most of the time, the average employee doesn't see the logic in the decision.

--------------------------------------------------
Bluto: What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? No!
Otter: Germans?
Boon: Forget it, he's rolling.
--------------------------------------------------

 

[JCreamerII]

Again, I have to agree with SQLSister. I see it all the time, mgt expects that they can just reload another body into a position and everything is OK. Depending on the position that may or may not ever be a good idea. Reminds me of insurance companies, who try to get every nickel they can from you. I think alot of companies take the same route, and try to keep cost low by nickel and diming you every chance they can. The person making the decisions isn't the one who will have to pick up the slack.

Jim C.
IT Team Leader

 

[hinesward]

It's generally known that people who accept counter-offers don't stay at that particular job very long anyway.

Is money the only reason that you are looking for another job? Or are there other reasons?

I've long said that people take a job for one set of reasons and stay at a job for a different set of reasons. Think about all the reasons why you may or may not want to stay at your next job.

 

[gimpel]

Begging for a raise
sodonnellICT (Programmer)

so, ok, someone please tell me why 'that' (above) appears 'above' this thread, cuz he/she is a legit person on the forum, but i dont see him/her in this thread...

anyway... rob m. you dont 'beg', and you dont 'demand'.

you have made the jump already, so it dont matter, except that you will probably see it again with the new company, if not soon than later...

you realize that your contribution to the company is more than the compensation you receive from them in return...

you dont beg, you dont demand... you state, calmly, my contribution has been this much, and if i dont receive 'this much' compensation, i am gone, sooner rather than later...

when you tell them 'this much' be specific, about how much you think you should receive for your services...

As the the first respondent to your post said, 'You don't get what you don't ask for.'

and, NO!!! it is not 'on them' to recognize and reward your contribution... the squeaky wheel gets the grease...

you asked, 'Is it not the place of those above me to have a handle on things like this?' yet you told us, they had asked those above them to give you a raise, and you did not get it... Those directly above you, that you trusted, may have told you one thing, while telling their bosses another, and one reason might have been, they thought their bosses would give you their job...

NO one is as concerned about the well being of you and yours as you are... therefore the responsibility falls upon YOU to look after the interests of you and yours...

your immediate superiors may have gone beyond 'their level of competence' (Peter Principle) and they are concerned about themselves and their families...

'other people' do not look out for your interests... you do...

and dont be 'timid'... (cuz that is my gut response to your post, 'afraid to assert yourself')...

the self assured statement that 'this is what i have contributed to this company, and therefore, this is what i am worth in compensation' should be enough, to determine whether to stay or leave, for a better offer...

regards...

gimpel

 

[TekkieDave]

I have a situation that applies:

My company's industry is very slow (construction), however, we still have work, and we are doing better than the company lets on. In June of '09, they announced to the entire company that they would be putting everyone on a 10% payroll deduction, and that they would review the issue in a few months. 11 months go by, and still the 10% reduction. I complain a bit to my boss, and he talks to the CEO, and they restore my pay. The only person in the company at the time.

A month goes by, and they announce to the whole company that they were restoring 5% of everyones pay. I am still currently the only person restored to 100%.

The problem is, it is still not enough money for me. I feel I deserve more, and I need more for my family to prosper.

I feel like if I ask for more $$, they are going to say, "Hey, we just gave him his 10% back, that's all he's getting grumble grumble grumble".

Right around the same time as when they restored my pay, I also passed my CCNA certification.

Is it wrong of me to complain for more money? How do I go about it?

 

[kmcferrin]

If you can demonstrate added value to the organization then you should be able to justify getting a raise. Whether or not the employer agrees with you is another story...

________________________________________
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MCSE:Security 2003
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