Avaya vs. Shoretel 3

[jneiberger]

I'm hoping that GSmitherman will answer this.

We are currently an Avaya shop. Four of our locations have Avaya PBXs. One location has Avaya IP phones registered to the PBX at our main location. A bunch our sites are standalone systems running Comdial or ESI key systems.

We have two sites with old Comdial systems that need to be replaced soon. We want to make a move toward VoIP and we want to use those sites as a kind of pilot. We are looking at Avaya, ShoreTel, and Cisco. Each has their own advantages and disadvantages.

The biggest advantage for Avaya is that we're already an Avaya shop. The move to Avaya VoIP system-wide would not require any forklift upgrades at our major sites. The migration at any given site would also be easier because the Avaya system would continue to support our existing analog and digital sets.

However, I'm very impressed with the Shoretel system. It looks really great! If I were starting a company from scratch and needed to purchase a phone system, it would definitely be ShoreTel. However, in our case, the incumbent provider has a huge advantage. Avaya may not be the "best" system, but it may be the best fit for what we're doing.

Keep in mind that we're not talking about Avaya IP office, we're talking about a full-blown system, not the SMB product.

What do you think? If you were already an established Avaya shop with hundreds of Avaya digital and analog sets in place already, would you still make the move to ShoreTel for VoIP? Is it *that* good?

Thanks!
John

 

[GSmitherman]

Going with Avaya may be the best fit for you. There would be a substantial cost to replace the sets. The 87XX Series platform is solid and would most likely meet your needs.
It is easy for me to say I would go to ShoreTel. The system grows from 10 to 10,000 users. I buy the system now and will only have to buy more modules not a new system if I get bigger. It is easy for me to say ShoreTel only because I don't pay the bills. The only bad decision you could make is to choose Cisco.

 

[R3LzX]

OK I want to first start off by saying that the shoretel product is good, however, i want to point out a few things.

I started off with a company that was exclusive to the Shoretel product some time ago. we tried to sell it and closed a few deals, however we could not compete against other known companies.

We went with Avaya and have been very satisfied with the support, the name and overall health of the company. We have dumped the shoretel Product and no longer sell it. we rolled out some major projects with it one that was an 8 site system.

Avaya may not be perfect, but keep in mind that it runs 90% of the fortune 500 and is number one in telephony. The ECG product is rock solid, and the gateways scale from small office to large enterprise. You will NEVER get the support from Shoretel that you get from Avaya Global Services

Shoretel has maybe 150 employees, I have visited their facilities, they will probably get bought out by someone else or something along those lines. their phones are ok but the lights in them go out and they are not very sturdy, they also do not offer near the hybrid integration that you are looking for.

Avaya does everything the Shoretel system does and then some.

Avaya is the king despite their flaws, they are a great company

 

[GSmitherman]

I could not disagree more. If you could not sell the product it was not due to the product. We are now selling more ShoreTel than Avaya.
Avaya offers no system that scales from 10 to 10,000. ShoreTel does. The next ShoreTel switch I replace will be the 1st switch I replace. I can't say that with Avaya.
As far as support, I showed your post to friends and they are still laughing. (They sell Avaya) Avaya support is horrible. Avaya's support is sending them a trace and a config. Then you wait for the answer to upgrade. Then the upgrade does not resolve the problem, but creates new problems. ShoreTel support blows them away. I have only had to call ShoreTel Support twice. Each time an engineer logs on the system while I am on the call. Avaya does not do that.
The small company you referred to is going public. I doubt they will be bought out any time soon.

 

[JBlacksky]

I agree about the Shoretel Tech Support. They are much better in that aspect then most manufacturers I dealt with on a day to day basis. So far, the multisite rollouts I've done were very smooth. It all depends on your preferences and requirements, but for ease of use and features, Shoretel is one of my favorites. If a client wants to handle their own telecom MACD support exclusivly (or as much as possible without incurring outsourcing costs) then Shoretel is a good option to consider.

 

[Pepperz]

Avaya's got two approaches to VoIP, IP Office and the Avaya 8000 series. The 8000 series is a Bell Labs product, and it is rock solid, like the Definity line it "replaced". The IP Office was engineered in Europe under the "Network Alchemy" name, and is no where nearly reliable as the 8000 class.
Avaya had some reason to brand it, but since it never really "invented" the IP Office, it cannot support it as well as it can the in-house product. I've put in several IP Offices, and have seen several removed. They are oversold, over rated, under supported, and in my opinion, just a temporary thing until Avaya finds their OWN product in the 20-200 station arena.
I know NOTHING about the Shoretel, but have heard good things, and it looks like they may be the one to eventually take over this niche.
I'd like to learn some more about them.

 

[aarenot]

Most systems are more dependant on the project manager, and the techinicain that implements it then the equipment itself. I have heard bad stories on any system if it is in the hands of a poorly experienced tech. I have worked on Shoretel system install teams, and lead Avaya system install teams, and can tell you that they have both had issues. The Shoretel systems I mentioned all needed intervention from Shoretel support to bring the system to acceptable functionality, even though the onsite project manager was as highly certified with Shoretel as one can get as well as Cisco CCVP, and had installed numerous Shoretel systems. I do not doubt his expertise with Shoretel systems at all, so I must blame this on the Shoretel systems themselves.
I have also worked on Avaya system install teams as other than the programmer, team lead, or project manager, and seen serious issues arise. In this case I cannot say that it was an issue with the equipment, because on the implement teams where I was the programmer, team lead, or project manager I have not had to use Avaya support, nor have their been anything but positive results.
Now just to be clear on what I mean by positive results, unsolicited letters to the company expressing their satisfaction with their implementation experience in at least 75%, only positve feedback on evaluation forms used for implementation customer feedback, additionally about 20% endorsing the validity of their satisfaction by purchasing another like system within one year, all willing to recomend to other consumers due to their implementation experience.
I have not heard one Cy sco system owner that I have spoken with express satisfaction, but then replacing them is more my experience level, and involvement point. The city I live in went Cy sco, and every department which I know management personel in I know is disatisfied, except the school district computer systems administrator who chose not to roll out cy sco, and kept his Mitel, and is the only dept which did not have over runs on their communications that year from implementation overun costs.
Now just to be clear, I install the Avaya IP Office, and participate in the forum here on tek-tips as well. I am speaking of my experience with the IP Office, not Avaya's admittedly more capable Enterprise systems which are also great products, and can migrate phones to them if properly choosing phones with that in mind when implementing the IPO. So the forklift method of upgrading from the Avaya SMB product to the enterprise product is also not needed if properly provisioned with foresight in the first place.
I am not saying either product is bad, but techs make the biggest difference, beyond that consider some things. Like Avaya is the longest term phone system implementor in the world reaching back to Alexander G Bell for its R&D. This history makes them also the largest phone system implementor in history, and their status amongst the current fortune 500 with complete, and utter undeniable dominance with no real honorable mention amongst the also rans sharing the remaining 10% of the market. I think we all know, these companies go with a sure thing.

I guess I look at Shoretel like a generic product with not much for sales in the market, and although they have their own name they are not seriously available in all markets, and next to no one has ever heard of them because they really have less systems out there than any other seriously considered factory. The biggest way that Shoretel probably competes against Avaya is by the fact that Avaya dealers also offer Shoretel in many cases because Shoretel understand that the Avaya community is the undisputed leader in knowledge, experience, expertise, marketplace respect, customer base, and field implementation technical expertise so they have targeted Avaya business partners to represent their products. When Shoretel goes public, Avaya will probably see that its channel partners are the majority of Shoretel dealers, realize they can integrate this product into their line well because fo this, and buy the stock up, then take it over.
The biggest thing going for Shoretel is the endorsement of the industry leading Avaya business partner channel of independent dealers who have become the largest single group of Shoretel dealers. That says more for the future of Shoretel than does anything else, since they represent Goliath force in the market in comparison to Shoretel. Shoretel should go to the Avaya BP's it has as dealers, and ask them to invest into Shoretel to raise funds rather than go to the stock market where Avaya can buy them, out of their pocket change. If they go fully public, it is only because they want someone like Avaya to take them over. I will buy their stock just for the opportunity to sell big to Avaya or who ever else takes them over.

 

[aarenot]

Shoretel is so small, it is probable their own dealers could buy all their stock, and take them over without having to borrow a dime to do it. To make a comparison, KIA holds a goliath share of representation in the international automobile industry in comparison to Shoretels non-international share of its national market.

 

[GSmitherman]

aarenot wrote:

Shoretel should go to the Avaya BP's it has as dealers, and ask them to invest into Shoretel to raise funds rather than go to the stock market where Avaya can buy them, out of their pocket change.

I guess he did not hear Avaya was bought out.

 

[aarenot]

G,
How much was the transaction for? I bet no one did that out of pocket change. The fact that Avaya was bought out is not suprising as they are the industry leader, and were quite a bargain. How much do you seriouosly think Shoretel would sell for in comparison? 3% of what Avaya did?

 

[GSmitherman]

A,

Your statement was Avaya could buy ShoreTel. Avaya was bought out. Lets see if there is an Avaya in the next couple of years.

 

[ronromano]

I would be more concerned that there's a Shoretel in a few years, if I were you.

 

[Pepperz]

AT&T never goes away, I mean.... Lucent will be here forever, well, what I mean is that Avaya is here to stay... OK, it's time to begin the pool for AT-Lu-Av new name contest. Any takers??

 

[jml2665]

how bout TPGC-SLP

 

[aarenot]

LOL, on the undisputed industry leader going out of business. Hell, I bet Avaya sells more oneX QE's than shoretel sells systems.

Seriously though guys, I like shoretel, but they are still just a mom and pops gas station compared to the chain of walmart super centers for size alone. That is a valid comparison when comparing shoretel to Panasonic, toshiba, nec, mitel, nitsuko, tadiran, esi, cysco, and just about any other factories systems out there including ones out of business for 10 years, they all still have more systems in the field, working. I bet there are still more working 1A2 systems in the world than shoretels.

That says nothing about quality, just says the truth, shoretel is miniscule in the national market, and equal to non-existant globally.

 

[Pepperz]

Who cares how big they are? Do they work?

 

[jneiberger]

Shoretel may be miniscule at the moment, but they seem to be doing pretty well with their rate of new installations. I keep hearing them pop up more and more, often beating out the bigger names. And I've yet to hear anyone complain about the systems once they're in place.

Happy customers plus good word-of-mouth advertising is a great way to grow.

 

[aarenot]

I am not saying they have a bad product, it has its niche. That is fully modern network infrastructures(robust networks), without the need for a great deal of the traditional features commonly known to key systems, PBX's, and call centers. Also, not really for companies who need a single platform to implement worldwide as they only have a portion of the USA covered with distributors. I do believe Canada is in the works now as well.

I have heard complaints on shoretels, but only when the expectation was that it would do everything that the more traditional companies systems would do.

 

[GSmitherman]

How many industy leaders typically get bought out? Typically the leaders are the one who does the buying. My company makes alot more money selling ShoreTel than Avaya. The service department spends the majority of their time on Avaya issues. I was one of the biggest Avaya fan's you could find. When I came to this company I told them I only wanted to work on Avaya products. I am open minded enough that when I am shown facts, I changed my opinion.
Avaya is a good product. There are times when an Avaya product would be a better fit for the customer. If all is equal and the choice is Avaya or ShoreTel. There is no choice. I would take ShoreTel each and every time.
I am Avaya ACS certified and hold the similar certification with ShoreTel. I have based my opinion on hands on experience. How many others with differing opionions can say the have the same hands on experience?

 

[aarenot]

G,
You have experience implementing every Avaya, and Shoretel system, including full enterprise, and call center solutions for both Avaya, and shoretel?

Oh, by the way, which competitor bought out Avaya?