Are vendors cheating on tech support?

[kiddpete]

When I bought my Alienware, I purchased three years of 24X7 tech support, but when I call later in the evening I get a message about the office being open from 8(?) to 6(?) Pacific Time. When I do get through, the help is usually ineffective consisting of uninstall/reinstall which chews up lots of time, but doesn't solve the problem.

Ditto for other vendors who don't understand their own technology, have trouble speaking English (India?), or sound like trainees.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...ashpost/20031222/tc_washpost/a17047_2003dec20

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

If they advertise 24x7 but don't provide it then that is a problem.
Them telling you to uninstall & reinstall is standard.
If you are not happy with the current person you are dealing with ask for a supervisor.
Unless you pay for customer service (ie it is not just part of the retail package) personally I wouldn't expect much.

 

[kiddpete]

Yes, uninstall & reinstall is standard, and, in my experience, usually worthless. It would be better to tell me nothing. Then Windows would not be degraded by a pointless uninstall/reinstall cycle. It's amazing how infrequently I find that advice in this forum.

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

Saddly the "uninstall/reinstall" recently worked form me. I was trying to get server & client side debugging for interdev working and though I did everything it just was not working. So I ended up uninstalling interdev, IIS, frontpage server, some com object and a few other things and then proceeded to go thru the whole process again....thank god it works now.

From a CS view this answer probably does fix a large number of problems on a box. Its like having a customer call you up and say "I think my monitor is broken the computer is on but I can't see anything." When I worked on a help desk I'd always make sure the cables where secure and the power was actually on before going out on site. You would be surprise how much time I saved by having them simply plug in the monitor's power because it was unpluged for some time of move but never plugged back in. Sad that more advanced users get the obvious replies but there is really no way for them to know your level of compitance. Thus the lowest common denominator is to treat you like an idiot hopefully without you realising it.

 

[edfair]

If the software company is of any size there will be 2 or 3 levels of support. Level 1 to answer the quick blowby questions. Level 2 for more serious problems. And level 3 that possibly gets access to the programming team that actually wrote the stuff.
If you are having a problem getting something solved there should be some mechanism for kicking the help request up a notch.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[myhandle42153]

hi kiddpete,
this is with response to your reply for my handle42153.can you tell me why does the microscopic cracks happen?
thanks

 

[kiddpete]

It's really hard to get that second level of support. I've never personally gotten to the third level. I have too many incidents to describe, but here are a few:

While recording TV (ATI AIW), I kept trying to get the pause function to work (i.e. pause the program, and resume when told to). I would get a really strange echo phenomenon. Alienware, who installed the videocard, was no help offering the usual uninstall/reinstall mantra. I finally figured out that the recording side of my soundcard was not set up properly. I was hearing both live video and the recorded wave file. After adjusting sound card controls, the problem disappeared.

There also was the 2Wire guy (SBC/Yahoo) that told me that my 2Wire adaptor did not support peer to peer connections. I was outraged since it already had supported p2p, but had lost it for some reason. I got his supervisor, but the supervisor also refused to offer help on p2p. I eventually discovered that the problem was being caused by a setting in the 2Wire firewall, but tech support never bothered to ask about settings on their device.

Maybe we won't get better support, but is that the way it ought to be?

 

[kiddpete]

myhandle42153,

I do not recall exactly where I saw it, but here are a few links that talk about it:

http://www.mscience.com/faq53.html

http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/av/2001/05/msg00033.html

http://www.ntu.ac.uk/safety/diskcrunch.htm

http://www.unesco.org/webworld/mdm/administ/en/guide/guide009.htm

 

[kiddpete]

BTW, by p2p, I'm talking about machines on my wireless network sharing printers and files. I'm not talking about downloading music/movies.

 

[edfair]

It may be that I've been lucky, or that more of my support calls have been with Unix based stuff, but I've been into 2nd and 3rd level support whenever I needed it.
But I have found that 3rd level is surprised when they find out how their software reacts with hardware that they never considered.
Seems like software writers get top of the line equipment with infinite space then write the programs to use the full capability. Then are surprised when things crash because they never considered the need for purging outdated data or 10 year old log files.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[lionelhill]

edfair, that is so true. Software designers who create a product using a top of the range machine and a handful of teeny test files are a pain. They should at least sell the thing with a large label "This product has not been tested under genuine working conditions and probably needs a mega-machine to handle even the simplest task". I notice games designers are far more professional about this than serious program designers.

 

[Grenage]

"I notice games designers are far more professional about this than serious program designers"

Games have a much bigger forum regarding reviews though, countless magazines and sites. I would imagine higher invested costs too.

 

[jsteph]

24x7 tech support means that they have an internet site with FAQ's. Generally 24x7 support never specifially mentions phone support, the user is left to assume that it in fact means 24x7 phone support, when it rarely does.

And yes, the hours in which they do answer the phone, (rarely toll free), they might as well have a recording that say's "Uninstall/Reinstall. Thank you, good bye".

I complain about this too, but for me it's karma coming for payback. In the very early '90s, I got my first computer, knew nothing about it. Wanted to program, bought MS Access 1.0. I literally had my first programming 'classes' by sitting on the phone with MS Support for easily 1 or 2 hours, several times a week, for months! They would say "we're not really here to provide 'how-to' knowledge, just to address bugs or installation/general help issues, but what the heck...". And they gave me extremely valuable lessons in VBA (Access Basic at the time) that enabled me to break into the business with enough knowledge to start a step above 'entry level programmer', and take advanced courses concurrently. My only cost was the phone bill, which wasn't too bad.

I think back and must say, as much as I hate to admit it--especially seeing MS's current $245 per incident charge--that I owe them a debt of gratitude.
--jsteph

 

[mrdenny]

As someone who started out in Tech Support for a major ISP, I can tell you; when you are a third teir tech support as I was, you make it as hard as possible for customers to get ahold of you. You do this for two reasons.

1. By the time you have made it to Tier 3 support you have been answering the phones for a very low wage for atleast a year or two at this company, plus any time spent at other companies. You are bitter, and it's in the companies interest to give you as few calls as possible. Making sure that the ones that do get to you are as hard as possible.
2. The longer the call stays with the Tier 1 and Tier 2 support folks the more they will learn. All support centers have "training". This trianing is usually nothing more than some guy who has been working in the training department for 4-5 years telling you how it was back when he was on the phones. Never mind the fact that there have been 3-4 new Operating Systems out since then. Most training done in call centers in OJT.

These days there are a very few companies that actually have support call centers within there own buildings. Almost all companies outsource this to another company. Weither that company is in India, Asia, or the US doesn't really matter. The outsource call center is usually given no documentation about the product. They are simply given access to the FAQ, and the walk throughs on the web site, and told to fix the problem. An out source call centers goal is to get you off the phone as quickly as possible. Most out source call centers get paid by the call, and want the reps to handle at least 50 calls per day. (BTW when I was in support 35 calls was the average. When you started taking 50 calls per day you joined the 50 club, which was usually pretty small. But we were concerned with quality not quanity back then.)

As for the reps that sound like trainees... They probally are. Durning the year and a half that I spent in the call center, employee numbers went from 1700 to 7000. That should tell you how much roll over there is. In my first week, which was all in the classroom, we had 4 people drop out because they couldn't handle the job. And all they had to do was sit there and learn how to use the CRM app and the Intranet. But the time we had been one the phones for one week my 50 person hiring class was down to 10 people left.

Call centers are constently hiring new people to fill the seats and answer the phones. The problems that call centers managers are faced with is that once you teach a call center rep enough to fully support the product, that rep will then go get another job somewhere else that pays twice or more than the call center pays. Tech support reps are considerred to be the lowest of the low in the food chain. The have a misserable job, that most other people from the company can't do, and they get paid nothing.

The company that I worked for had a program in place, where all employees that did not work in the call center, had to go sit with a tech support and customer service rep for 1 hour each and listen to the calls that they got. This was an eye opening experience for most of the people. Several of the System Admins were shocked at just how smart and capable the tech support reps were.

If you don't get the kind of support that you want from the Tier 1 rep, simple ask to be transfered to a more senior technication. If they refuse, ask for a supervisor. 95% of tech support reps will transfer you to a supervisor the second you ask for one. Those are usually magic words to them which mean "I want someone to yell at". Once you are done explaining to the supervisor what a moron his Tier 1 support rep is, the supervisor will usually get you to a Tier 2 support rep.

Don't feel bad about telling the sup that his rep is an idiot. He probally already knows this. His job is to sit there and let you tell him that the rep is an idiot.

</end of book>

Didn't plan on writting quite that much.

Have a good holiday.

Denny

--Anything is possible. All it takes is a little research. (Me)

 

[kiddpete]

I forgot about one tactic I've run into several times. If the call takes too long, hang up in mid conversation.

 

[theoxyde]

I've actually had a Dell tech tell me that the call was taking too long, gave me his badge number and told me to call back. Only happened once, though.

 

[jrbarnett]

Has anybody else had a support engineer not able to fix the problem that they were sent out to fix?
I have, on two separate occasions.

1. All was fine with the PC, except the CD-ROM drive, which refused to read CD's under any circumstances.
Engineer #1 replaced motherboard and drive, but problem still persisted, he was unable to fix it.
Engineer #2, arrived 2 days later replaced IDE cable and drive worked fine.

2. Engineer was to replace motherboard with faulty integrated graphics. Came in, replaced board, connected up IDE cables, power etc and powered up. Bios BEEPs ensued. I was on the phone at the time speaking to someone else - he got his mobile out, phoned his boss said he had a faulty m/board and started replacing the old one back in. I got off the phone and said &quot;Did you switch the RAM over?&quot; - &quot;No&quot; he said, tried it and it worked.

-Just two experiences from the company whose name rhymes with Hell.

John

 

[edfair]

JR,
You were lucky. Sometimes it takes dozens of calls before it is right.
Tech support people are human, they put their pants on one leg at a time like the rest of humanity. they bring their history with them and sometimes they don't have the right parts, the right tools, or the right experience.
I can tell some real stories, from the CE side, from the tech specialist side, from the management side, and from the user side. I've been in all those places and understand the problems. And that is before I get wound up about the hardware manufacturers or the software writers who are no great genuises themselves.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[PcAbuser]

Wow. I am not sure where to begin, or what to say in this thread.
I have personally been working customer sevice for 18 years now.

Many of the respondants in this thread are right in regards to the tiers of support.

When a customer calls and asks a question I don't know off the top of my head, (which is not that often I might add) I simply let them know I will check into a few things and call them back shortly, as opposed to giving them an answer I am not sure about.

I will do some research, (which usually means going to co-workers in my department, and then to the engineer who designed the product or wrote the code.)

And you know what? I learn something that makes me all that much better for future calls and issues.

Now, when things work out this way, I DO call them back soonest possible. Sometimes within minutes, sometimes an hour or two, and in the worst cases, the next day.

This is after all, how it needs to be in order for the support staff to:

A- Get better at their jobs, in which eveyrone wins including the individual who needs the assistance to begin with. After all, the one who is trying to supply the help has to learn which questions to ask, in order to get to the real problem.

B- It lets the coders do what they are hired to do. CODE!

Lets face a fact here. If the engineers are spending all their time doing customer support, then they are not enhancing products, creating new products, or doing THEIR jobs.

Companies NEED their engineers to engineer.

Otherwise they will be out of business. Just try to get support on a product after a company has had to close their doors from lack of revenue, or future upline products for the market/markets they serve.

As far as cheating on tech support, our company provides a toll free phone number that a real human being answers during normal business hours, and if it is after hours, the call is auto forwarded to the managements cell phone, who then gets in touch with the proper individual (the best one to handle the particular situation) to call that customer back. regardless of time of day.

I can't count the times where I spent most of my evening helping customers from home. Be it via telephone, or WebEx over the internet from my home PC.

One last point on customer support.
How many of you out there have TRIED to help someone, who didn't even know where the danged start button was? (Or something as elementary as that?)
Sometimes the customer is as much of the problem as the customer servant, with their ignorance of the PC itself.

My son when he was 3 years old, had more computer skills than many of the people who call in for help.

Also, many's the time, where the customer simply picked up the phone to call the &quot;experts&quot; before they made any attempt at all to find out the problem.

Sorry for the long rant, but there are MANY angles to this.

By the way, Happy Holidays to all of you, and all of yours.





Do well unto others, else you will/should, not respect what you see in the mirror at the end of the day!

 

[strongm]

>Lets face a fact here. If the engineers are spending all their time doing customer support


There's an argument here for getting the engineers to design and build their products better so that they don't need to spend (much) time doing customer support...


I vaguely recall Microsoft toying with the idea of putting the developers of Office 97 onto the help desk when the product was to be released. The idea was that they knew the developers would hate the idea, and make a better, more user-friendly product so that they wouldn't get too many calls. Of course, what we ended up with was the Office Assistant...