Another issue in Vista and DRM 3

[pmonett]

It seems that Vista is not content with only restricting your rights and wasting humongous amounts of time and processor power in controlling what bits you want to delete.

Vista is apparently in a whole new league when it comes to phoning home what you are doing. Check this article and wonder why all that data on your activity is being transmitted back to Microsoft.

This is not something that encourages me to go to Vista. Far from it.

Pascal.


I've got nothing to hide, and I'd very much like to keep that away from prying eyes.

 

[Sympology]

Anything that AutoUpdates goes back to the supplier, so stop panicing !

You run AV, where doe that report back to?
You run AntiSpyware, Where do you think that updates to?
Media players? Real has to be the most intrusive.
Bet you use Google (and apps?). So your willing to submit personal information to an advertising company?

Big deal, so MS now that the last album I played in Media Player was a home made Wedding CD and the Last DVD ripped was my Wedding Video. I'd rather MS knew about that than the the Advertising monster that is Google

Only the truly stupid believe they know everything.
Stu.. 2004

 

[Opieo]

P-money, I saw that article too.
I agree, having over 20 services that each report data back, when they Never even tell you what for, seems a bit extreme.
At least with an anti virus, I know the data is being used to monitor viruses spreading and info such as that.
I already plan on never getting Vista, or supporting it in any sort of way. I mentioned why in another thread (relates to what M$ demanded of video card manufacturers and how that will increase costs to me, the video gamer, across the board, but this is not the thread for that). Just another reason, on the list that is ever growing, why I will not use Vista.

~
Give a man some fire, he will be warm for a day, Set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life.

 

[pmonett]

Sorry Stu, but I'm not content knowing that my privacy is being raped by one entity rather than another. Google or Microsoft, as far as my privacy is concerned, are equally bad.

Pascal.


I've got nothing to hide, and I'd very much like to keep that away from prying eyes.

 

[gbaughma]

Now hold on a second.....

I refuse to become passive in what my computer is reporting. Even with the "auto update" stuff that Microsoft does... they try to pacify you saying "information is being collected about your COMPUTER, not YOU".

Well, they don't need information about my computer!

It should be as simple as "What's the latest version of xyz software? 1.7? OK... send that." My software shouldn't need to report "I am currently running 1.5, is there a newer version?"

People want a balance between handy and privacy.

Look at the same situation two different ways.

1 - You drop in a CD, and Media Player brings up the cover art for you. Cool!

2 - You drop in a CD, and your computer's IP address is tracked as the artwork is downloaded from a database that's scoring and tracking what kind of music you listen to. Uncool!

The reality of it is, it's the same situation. Both ways. You can't have one without the other.

The kicker of it is, we constantly trade off a little more of our privacy ground for convenience. Has anyone questioned the fact that you can go to McDonald's (or other fast-food chain, or grocery store), swipe your debit or credit card, and if it's under $25, you don't have to sign.

Convenient.

And they have *NO CLUE* whose credit card I have. Because they didn't look, they don't care, and they certainly didn't verify my signature.



Just my 2¢
-Cole's Law: Shredded cabbage

--Greg

http://parallel.tzo.com

 

[Sympology]

That's entirely my point, public perception. People are happy to let google know you preferences, but moan about MS. If people are truley that bothered then why the hell are they here?

Clearly Pascal being a french national working in Luxembourg, you have an interst in PC's, Lotus Notes and developing, maybe would even like to start your own business or maybe you run one.

Odd how we're willing to moan about personal privacy, then splatter very personal data all over the web....





Only the truly stupid believe they know everything.
Stu.. 2004

 

[jsteph]

Odd how we're willing to moan about personal privacy, then splatter very personal data all over the web....

Yes, but if we *choose* to splatter selected bits of personal information, that's one thing. To have it subversively taken is quite another.
--Jim

 

[pmonett]

Thank you for making my point, Jim.

Stu, you only know what I agreed to make public. You don't know my address, you don't know the name of my wife nor how many children I may or not have.
That is the essence of privacy, my right to reveal that which I decide other people can know about me.
With Vista, there are things being learned about me that I have no power to decide on. I don't agree with that.

Pascal.


I've got nothing to hide, and I'd very much like to keep that away from prying eyes.

 

[Sympology]

yet we connect via an ISP, who can find EXACTLY what you are doing, what sites you vist, your name, your address, your phone number etc etc.

Do you use credit / debit cards? Then every transaction can not only be processed by the banks, but the clearing houses, the feds, credit reference agencies, the bloke who sells used cars up the road.

The point I am making here is the stuff MS collect is pretty trivial to what you send out every day. That stuff

As it states, the majority of it can be turned off, just like you don't have to use cards.

Do you honestly believe MS has people sitting there bothering to look what each person is doing? Some of it is for there benefit, some of it for ours. For example if an app crashes when a certain process happens it may happen only once to you, but may happen to millions of people, so they may use the info to issue a fix. The same if you get malware, they may find the it's a zero day hit, and issue a patch very quickly.

And at the end of the day if you don't like it, don't buy it !

Only the truly stupid believe they know everything.
Stu.. 2004

 

[burtsbees]

I bank online, and the only one that sees the info unencrypted are the ones for whom transactions are meant. Zone Alarm encrypts the info one way (MD5) for me.

Burt

 

[pmonett]

Stu,

If you intend to refute my arguments, please do so with counter arguments that actually hold some water.

The ISP can certainly know my address, but the only name it "knows" is the name given at subscription time. As for what web sites I visit, well duh. That doesn't mean it is supposed to document that information and be able to sift through it in fifty years time. Microsoft has no limit on data retention, and I have no control on what it can take or keep.

My phone number is not protected in any way, it is in the phone book. That is why there is a law against people abusing phone numbers to bother other people, because the information is not private. The phone company also knows my address, but they are not supposed to give that information to third parties and, if they do so, I can sue them for breach of my privacy. Microsoft, apparently, I cannot sue since the EULA allows them to basically transfer the information as MS sees fit (note that I have no say in the matter).

As for my credit card transactions, yes the CC company knows about it, and, unlike Microsoft, their sworn (and legal requirement) duty is to keep that information private. The "bloke down the road" does not know about my CC details.

Another point is that all the examples you cite are isolated occurences that happen with different elements. The major difference with Microsoft is that it would take a lot of work for these various elements to piece their information together and get a complete picture, whereas MS is just sitting on the end of the line watching stuff flow in from everywhere.

Finally, I do not believe that MS is paying people to look at all this stuff, but that begs the question why they are getting this info in the first place ?

You can consider that all this is unimportant. You have the right to give your credit card information to shady dealers if you want. But I do not find that it is right to dismiss out of hand these "features" that do not exist in any other OS from any other maker.

And I find it important to disseminate this information so that other people can make an informed decision. If that decision is to not buy Vista, well that's fine by me.

Pascal.


I've got nothing to hide, and I'd very much like to keep that away from prying eyes.

 

[pmonett]

There is another thing I would like to say about information gathering.

It is true that, at this time, Microsoft is the only company to generalise personal data capture in many aspects of its new OS.

Credit card companies do not know what your banker knows about you, or what sites you surf on. ISPs do not know your offline shopping habits. Your supermarket does not know where you live, nor what you buy in other shops, nor who you phone to on a regular basis.

For the moment, Microsoft is in a unique position where, thanks to its crushing dominance in the desktop market, it can actually force previously unheard-of and totally unjustified levels of data capture on what could potentially be a vast number of unwary people.

Right now, only Microsoft can do this, but what will happen if there is no reaction from the public ? What will happen when other companies see that the general public accepts this violation of their privacy without complaint ?

What will keep these companies from pooling their knowledge to gain yet more leverage over our lives ? Do you really think your life will be better if, when you look at yourself in the morning, your mirror tells you that you need the extra-soft precision of a Wilkinson blade to shave your stubble ?

I think we're are heading straight for a surveillance society, if not by governments, then by corporate entities.

And I don't like the idea.

Pascal.


I've got nothing to hide, and I'd very much like to keep that away from prying eyes.

 

[Sympology]

{Quote] Microsoft is the only company to generalise personal data capture [/Quote]

And Google (who also now own doubleclick] who proberbly know more about your habit than anyone esle and extremly poor data protection and retention, hence they are now being pulled up by the EU.



Only the truly stupid believe they know everything.
Stu.. 2004

 

[Welshbird]

There will be huge value in the data that Microsoft collects from this. And the laws of data protection (AFAIK) that we have in the UK would limit the use of the data enormously. I have no idea how the equivalent law (if in exists) protects peoples in other countries.

Store Loyalty cards are worth the money they pay back (and some) for the marketing segmentation information they provide. Microsoft are just doing a similar thing, but with major and far reaching possibilities as they can (and apparently do) collect data in such a wide ranging and diverse area.

I for one will stay with OSX. I don't mind that Apple know which music I buy. It is my choice to tell them. Anything thing else is private to me.

(This is also the reason why I do not have a club card or a nectar card - Can you tell I work in the data industry?)

Fee

The question should be [red]Is it worth trying to do?[/red] not [blue] Can it be done?[/blue]

 

[Opieo]

I wish we had stricter laws in the US about protecting people's data. They seem to be more concerned with passing laws that protect corporations and screw over the public at every turn possible. Mine that data. Give it to the government. That way they know all. I do not like where "we" are heading, but I try to fight it with what is at my disposal, which seems to hold almost no footing these days as I feel even those rights are partially worthless now. I will not give up though. Before I go any further on this I am stopping, for I do not feel that this is the forum, or at the very least, not the right thread, for such a topic.

As pmoney mentioned though, there is a large difference between choosing who you give certain information out to, and a software company installing services and then not warning people about it, and doing so without your express permission. How many people seriously read every single EULA for every piece of software they install? I submit that the general public doesn't, and M$ was banking on that for these services.

~
Give a man some fire, he will be warm for a day, Set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life.

 

[Sympology]

In the UK (and much of Europe) EULA are pretty useless,as are many contracts. There is a basic "unfair" contract get out in UK law.
I know this as I've used it on 2 occasions to bust out / upgrade contracts.

Only the truly stupid believe they know everything.
Stu.. 2004

 

[burtsbees]

You're worried about all this, but NOT about Big Brother watching you through your television set? What do you think all those cameras are doing on the stoplights and all over the city in some places? What about network security cameras? You know anyone that knows how to use Google the right way can watch those, right?

Burt

 

[pmonett]

Watching me through my TV set ? I'm on satellite - nobody knows what I'm watching. As for network security cameras, well I think that is a problem that is more UK-based than anything else - although the French government has just requested a study on the feasibility of installing a network in major cities.
So it seems that Big Brother is indeed being invited just about everywhere we are. And I'm saying that I don't like it.

Although there is one thing going for security cameras - if you hide your face, there is no way they can pull out your identity from the clothes you wear - until RFID tags are put into everything, of course.

I really am going to have to convince my wife to move to the North Pole.

Pascal.


I've got nothing to hide, and I'd very much like to keep that away from prying eyes.

 

[burtsbees]

Okay---I was being a bit sarcastic about the Big Brother thing. As far as network security cameras on stoplights, they are all over the US. They capture pictures and video of cars that "roll" through a stoplight or that exceed the posted speed limit (nobody EVER does these things, do they?), and they mail you a ticket. What's THAT all about?

Burt

 

[flapeyre]

Watching me through my TV set ? I'm on satellite - nobody knows what I'm watching.

Not necessarily - I have satellite service, too (DirecTV), and the control boxes periodically phone home (they are hooked up to the phone line, and late at night they dial a toll-free number to get software updates and such). You must have the line plugged in to use pay-per-view.

How do you know that your satellite dish does not transmit?

Tibi gratias agimus quod nihil fumas.