A lesson from school 2

[audiopro]

I was asked at school

Which is correct

9 and 6 added together is 17

or

9 and 6 added together are 17

Doesn't generally work when it is written down but ask someone the question and most people, except the clever people on here, get it wrong.

Keith

http://www.studiosoft.co.uk

 

[CajunCenturion]

The correct statement is: Nine plus six equals 15.

The singular is grammatically correct.


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[tcsbiz]

Other than CajunCenturion's correct answer, I would probably say:

9 and 6 added together is 15.

You have only one answer, so, it is singular.

 

[audiopro]

9 and 6 added together is indeed 15 but the human mind is programmed to attend to the grammar - that was the whole point of my teachers question.

Keith

http://www.studiosoft.co.uk

 

[SkipVought]

The sum is...

NOT the sum are.

The SUM is.

The components of the sum are.

Skip,
[sub]
Just traded in my old subtlety...
for a NUANCE![/sub]

 

[SantaMufasa]

CC, I need some help understanding the rule here...

It is my grammatical understanding that “Item 1 and Item 2 are Item 3," not "Item 1 and Item 2 is Item 3." Venerable resources seem to back up my belief:[ul][li]The Grammar of English Grammars: "The two sixes added together are twelve."[/li][li]Reverso Dictionary: "Two and three added together are five."[/li][/ul]
Please clarify for me.


Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]
“Beware of those that seek to protect you from harm or risk. The cost will be your freedoms and your liberty.”

 

[SkipVought]

The components, when added are a value.

The sum of the components is a value.

The components are.

The sum is.

...is the way I conceive it.

Skip,
[sub]
Just traded in my old subtlety...
for a NUANCE![/sub]

 

[CajunCenturion]

The general rule is that a compound subject consisting of two singular items joined by the conjunction 'and' takes a plural verb. However, there are two exceptions to that rule. The singular form of the verb is used whenever
[li]the compound subject is modified with an 'each', 'every', or similar type adjective; [/li]
[li]or when the individual subject items combine to form a single item.[/li]


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[SantaMufasa]

Yes, Skip, I follow that "The sum (a single item) is..." and "the components (multiple values) are...", but two discrete values are, unless someone can explain to me otherwise.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]
“Beware of those that seek to protect you from harm or risk. The cost will be your freedoms and your liberty.”

 

[CajunCenturion]

Dave, I don't know if you saw my above post, but in it I tried to answer your question.

The real problem with this example, and what causes the confusion, is the use of term "and". Conjunctions are not arithmetic operators; they're boolean operators.

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[SantaMufasa]

CC,

No, I hadn't seen you post (as yours and mine were near cross posts). I understand that and, as it appears above, is inappropriately acting as an arithmetic operator. But let's remove that from consideration altoghter...let's use plus instead: I agree that "is" is the appropriate conjugation if one considers "2 plus 3" to be a single arithmetic expression; if one can build a case for "2 plus 3" being a plural subject, then "are" is appropriate (it seems to me).

These discussions always cause me to reflect on the differences between American English and British English:[ul][li]"The Utah Jazz is in town on Saturday." versus[/li][li]"The Utah Jazz are in town on Saturday."[/li][/ul]Is/Are "The Utah Jazz" a singular subject or a plural subject?

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]
“Beware of those that seek to protect you from harm or risk. The cost will be your freedoms and your liberty.”

 

[CajunCenturion]

Before we change the subject, are you intending to build a case for "2 plus 3" being a plural subject? If so, then please present your case.

Now to the other item, that is a completely different issue. Compound subjects and collective nouns (or mass nouns if you prefer) are two entirely different things. Collective nouns can be either singular or plural, depending on context, or on which side of the Atlantic you reside.

For me, the number of a collective noun is all about context. If in context, the collection is being treated as a singular unit, then I use a singular verb. I would say:
The Utah Jazz is our opponent tonight.
However, if I'm referring to the items within the collection, then I would use a plural verb.
The Utah Jazz are staying in several different hotels.


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[SkipVought]

Might that even depend on context...

The Dallas Cowboys are our opponent tonight.

Skip,
[sub]
Just traded in my old subtlety...
for a NUANCE![/sub]

 

[CajunCenturion]

Last year, especially with Terrel Owens, the Cowboys were more about the individual than the team, so yes, I would agree with The Dallas Cowboys are the opponent.


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[SantaMufasa]

Before we change the subject, are you intending to build a case for "2 plus 3" being a plural subject? If so, then please present your case.

"2 boxes of butter plus 3 tubs of margarine is/are 5 containers of toast toppings?"


What would be grammatically correct, above, and why?

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]
“Beware of those that seek to protect you from harm or risk. The cost will be your freedoms and your liberty.”

 

[CajunCenturion]

Two boxes of butter plus 3 tubs of margarine IS five containers of toast toppings. It's singular because a mathematical expression that results in a discreet value is a singular construct.


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Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
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[AnotherHiggins]

You do all realize that this wasn't really a grammar question, right?

Still, debate and the exchange of ideas is good and fun to read.

Proceed, my geek brethren.

[tt][blue]-John[/blue][/tt]
[tab][red]The plural of anecdote is not data[/red]

Help us help you. Please read FAQ 181-2886 before posting.

 

[audiopro]

Don't ask me how we got from a simple misleading maths problem to cowboys but the transistion has been interesting.
Thankyou, one and all.

Keith

http://www.studiosoft.co.uk

 

[BadBigBen]

Don't ask me how we got from a simple misleading maths problem to cowboys but the transistion has been interesting.

hey, every geek knows this, as it starts in High School, where they do the homework for the Football players...

Ben
"If it works don't fix it! If it doesn't use a sledgehammer..."
How to ask a question, when posting them to a professional forum.
Only ask questions with yes/no answers if you want "yes" or "no"

 

[keenanbr]

i can remember reciting;

one and one is two
one and two is three
one and three is four
...
...
but

two ones are two
two twos are four
two threes are six
..
..