5.0--> 6.5 Legacy print servers don't work

[pray11342]

In process of testing an upgrade from a 5.0 server to a 6.5 SBS server.

The Migrate wizard works, but in order to use it, you install a "Pre-Migration" Server. After the migration, a few things are gone, and it is still a pretty bare 6.5 server. I will need to install and configure all the high rent management tools AFTER the migration, looks like to me.

We have about 6 remote print servers (Troy Extendnet 100x) So far I am unable to get these to connect to the 6.5 server. Under 5.0 or 5.5, the devices connected to the server automatically, Each showed up as a Print Server that I could add queues and printers to.

IPX is running on the server, I assume it would not need to be loaded on the workstaion, as print jobs would be sent from the server under Netware.

I have located an updated config program from Troy Group. Problem is, nothing I can do will make them work as non-ndps print servers. AFAIK, the only way to set them up under "Netware" is with IPX protocol. The program creates a Print server, a Printer, and a Queue that all appear in NWAdmin. In the Print Layout(non-dps) dialog, the Print Server is down if I try to let the remote box connect. If I Load the Print Server that is created, it shows the printer (HP LaserJet 4 Plus, nothing fancy) as disconnected.

Re-creating all the printing is a real hassle, and if these devices don't work, it is a disaster. We have about 6 of them, with 2 or 3 printers each connected.

A little bit ago, I set up a printer on the box using TCP/IP, through Windows XP. It connected and was printing in 2 minutes.

Anyone think these boxes can print using Netware, or should I concentrate on recreating printing via Windoze?

Any ideas greatly appreciated.

Paul Ray

Programming Languages -- .BAT Files

Preffered editor -- EDLIN

 

[marvhuffaker]

You'd be better off using NDPS and TCP/IP. If you can print to them via direct IP from Windows, you can generally make it work with NDPS. you are correct that Queue based printing requires IPX.. Not sure why you can't make it work. I have setup numerous queue based printing systems on Netware 6.5 to accomodate older applications. Never had a problem with it. Queue printing does require user based connections to server, so maybe your licensing is not installed?

Personal preference... don't use the "Pre-migration server". this essentially gives you a broken server. If you want, just install a custom server and just install the basic service. Install the other stuff after you get things up and running.

Another thing you could do is forget trying to migrate. Just install the 6.5 server into your current tree and then move the files. It's actually a lot cleaner that way. Less disruption and you can take your time.

Marvin Huffaker, MCNE

http://www.redjuju.com

 

[pray11342]

Hi Marv,

Thanks for the quick reply!

I have been avoiding NDPS since Netware 5.0, but it may be time to give it a crack. Do you know of a good tutorial or readme for setting it up? I tried it when I migrated my own server, back in May. Didn't have a big success. I never messed with it before, because I couldn't make sense of the manual. (Not that unusual for Novell, sadly).

You may have the answer, I have not installed licences as yet. They should be here in a couple days, that might be why it doesn't work.

I would like to try a new 6.5 Basic Service setup, but at least the migration moved my 60+ users and groups for me. I also managed to move and re-install the Groupwise. Re-creating all that would be a bigger hassle than the printing.

This is a week-end job, and must have most of it running Monday morning. I have warned them that it may not be ready for prime time. ;-)

On your last idea, can I install a server in the tree, move the files, and also move the NDS users and groups? Can I make the new server the Master Replica in the tree? What happens when I shut down the old 5.0 Server? Sorry to sound ignorant, I've been setting up and maintaining single server systems for years, got no experience with a real "Tree"

Thanks for the help.

Paul Ray

Programming Languages -- .BAT Files

Preffered editor -- EDLIN

 

[LawnBoy]

NDPS is really pretty easy. I've noticed that the 6.5 documentation keeps pointing you towards iPrint, which I neither like nor use (personal opinion, no flames please).
You could look up NDPS in the Netware 6.0 docs, it works exactly the same as in 6.5.

Basically, you create an NDPS Broker (widget that hands out the print drivers to workstations), then an NDPS Manager (widget that creates Printer Agents). Then you can start creating the Printer Agents and associating them to your printers. Voila, you're ready to install printers on any workstation running the Novell Client.

If you get stuck, many of us here are VERY familiar with NDPS (my life would be hell without it) and we can give you specific help.

 

[marvhuffaker]

Paul, If you add a second server into a Tree, it should automatically get an entire replica of the tree. So in other words, it gets a full copy of NDS automatically. (this assumes you've never partitioned your tree) No users or groups to migrate, it's already there. Your printing won't migrate because the queues are tied to physical volumes, but they are easy enough to recreate if we can't convert you to NDPS.

If the licensing thing is getting you, you should be able to find an unlimited user, 90 day timebomb temp license to use till you get your real ones ordered. It's on the CD in a folder called \license. You should be able to get licenses delivered within 2 days electronically from Novell. I do it all the time for people. If this is a small company (Less than 100 users), I hope you ordered the Netware 6.6 Small Business Suite. Includes NetWare 6.5, GroupWise 6.5, ZENworks 6.5, and BorderManager 3.8. If not, send it back and I can help you get the right version. The 6.6 version was just released this month.

NDPS requires 3 main components:

1) NDPS Broker - This is how you manage the printer drivers - you need only one.
2) NDPS Manager - This is what controls the printer agents. Again, you need only one.
3) NDPS Agents - This is the actual printer. You will have one for each network printer in your system. When you create the NDPS agents, use the Novell Gateway (SNMP) and this will tell it to use TCP/IP.

You can get NDPS up and running by a) Installing the NDPS components on the server - do it during the install or afterwards off of CD#2. b) creating all the above mentioned objects in NetWare Administrator - you can't do it in Console One. You can do it in iManager but it might be easier to figure out in NWADMIN since you're already familiar with it.

--------
NOTE: This is the part that a lot of people don't understand.. After the printers are created, you can AUTOMATICALLY deploy them to workstations. This requires no user interaction and can be centrally managed. A lot of people lose it here because they don't understand where to go next. There are three things you need..

1) You need to make sure the NDPS broker has the drivers for your printers and that the correct drivers are asssigned to the Printer Agents.
2) You need to configure your Containers (or create Group objects) such that they are assigned certain printers. In other words, tell the container or group what printers you want deployed. This is done on the container or group object under the "NDPS Remote Printer Management" tab. It's somewhat self explanitory once you get there.
3) You need the NDPS component of the Novell client installed. On most client versions, this means doing a custom install and ticking the "Novell Distributed Print Services" option. It's off by default in the newest client, why I have no idea except they are probably trying to push iPrint client instead.
4) You need to add commands to AUTOEXEC.NCF on server to ensure the Broker and Manager load automatically next time you reboot the server (probably 12-14 months, and by then you'll have forgotten.)

What happens when everything is working: Users login, they don't do anything. The NDPS printers show up on their system automatically. They go to print and just do it. Easy deal.

--------

To Lawnboy - I am not a huge fan of iPrint either. It's really just an extension of NDPS and requires NDPS underneath anyway. I still use NDPS to manage everything with almost all of my clients. The place where iPrint comes in handy is when you start using ZEN policies and you can push iPrint printers to workstation objects.. you can't do that with NDPS alone since you only deal with users, groups, and containers..

Paul -- If you have any further questions feel free to ask, but if you get in over your head and get up against a wall, you might want to consider calling someone that can help you through it. Might save you in the long run.

Marvin.





Marvin Huffaker, MCNE

http://www.redjuju.com

 

[pray11342]

Hey Marv and Lawnboy,

Can't believe the level of expert help available here!

Last night, I broke the mirror on the drives so as not to have to go back to GO, and attempted to install NDPS. Lawnboy says that 6.0 might have better instructions on this. I have a Netware 6 Networks book from our friends at Novell. Read all they have about NDPS. If I read it about 6 more times, I could describe the architecture and tell you how wonderful it is in my sleep, and answer several questions on the exam. I still would not have a clue as to how to install it!

So I grabbed my Netware 6.5 administrator's Manual. Found the instructions to install NDPS as a post install. They insist that you have to install iPrint. Well, OK, says I, we got a backup. I followed the instructions in the book very carefully. When the NWDeploy install was done, they say to start the Apache Server and Tomcat4. The server says "Command not Found".

When I ran the migrate a few weeks ago, I tried to install iManager post-install, pretty much the same results. I called Novell on one of my free calls, and the tech stayed on line with me for about 3 or 4 hours, over an hour past his quitting time. After a gut wrenching session of downloading patches for this and that, we finally got iManager to run. I thanked the Tech and he went home. I have launched iManager a few times since then, and am still amazed that it does not appear to have a single useful function available to me. Like iPrint, for instance. It appears that I will need to go through the whole thing again to get anything useful installed that I can use it for. Now you know why I am here.

I'm beginning to think that installing the server on the tree and moving the files may be a better solution.

Question: If I have a clone of the old server running, can I install the 6.5 server in the tree with it, and if I carry it to the customer site and plug it in will it recognize the tree? Would I have to update or synchronize the NDS? The old server has been crunching along for a few weeks while I have been fooling with the clone. Seems reasonable, but I been bit by simpler things than that.

As soon as this is posted, I am going to fdisk the drive, boot up the other mirror, re-mirror the drives and attempt the information in Marv's last post. First the licenses, and maybe still the NDPS. Looks like something that I am going to have to learn. Thanks for all the help so far.

BTW, the flyers and info on SBS 6.5 claims that printers and other peripherals no longer consume licenses? NDPS might be the only answer if the 6 year old print servers can't log in. They seem to talk TCP/IP just fine.

I ordered the licenses thru Tech Data, they should show up in an email shortly. I can use the temp licenses for this set up, I will be scragging it anyway. I will check with you about the 6.6 business. I ordered 6.5 from Tech Data, that is prolly what I will get. Will go on line to check about the 6.6. If it is a major upgrade, we probably want it.

Marv, about your last aside -- Is RedJuJu going to be around this weekend?

Paul Ray

Programming Languages -- .BAT Files

Preffered editor -- EDLIN

 

[ITsmyfault]

1 - agree with Marv & Lawnboy that NDPS is the best.. it is worth the trip. Printing is painless here and has been for many years.

re: iPrint - where I like it is to replace DOS cues but have them be cluster aware (since we cluster) I can use the icapture piece of iPrint. Otherwise I just use NDPS - KISS. Why add a layer I don't need to a system that works fine?

 

[marvhuffaker]

The only real difference between 6.5 SBS and 6.5 SBS is that you get a newer version of ZEnworks. Not a huge thing, but definitely worth it.


Marvin Huffaker, MCNE

http://www.redjuju.com

 

[pray11342]

Hi again all,

Thanks ITsmyfault, I think I will attempt NDPS. Those old Netware print servers worked great, nobody looked at them in about 4 years. But time to move on. Nobody is using Windows 95 anymore either, and that is a good thing.

Correction to the last post. Seems I was installing iManager last night, you gotta do it before iPrint. Now that I re-booted the server, looks like part of it is working. (I shouldn't work at this stuff till after midnite.)

I may follow that bunny trail a little farther today, now that I remember that you have to re-boot the server everytime you run part of the install. I will also try to install just NDPS, probably all we will need.

Thanks for the help!

Paul Ray

Programming Languages -- .BAT Files

Preffered editor -- EDLIN

 

[marvhuffaker]

You don't need iManager to install iPrint. You do need iManager if you want to manage Windows XP drivers. I would get iPrint (NDPS) working first, then worry about iManager.

You use the Novell GUI on the server to install iPrint. Click <start>, Install -- point it to PRODUCT.NI on the root of CD#2. Select iPrint from the list, clear everything else. That copies the necessary files to the server and updates the schema so you can create the objects you need. Then you use NetWare Administrator to do the rest as mentioned above.



Marvin Huffaker, MCNE

http://www.redjuju.com

 

[pray11342]

Hey folks,

I sure wasn't having any luck with the iManager stuff.

Seems the file on the OS CD\licenses is not a valid license file, at least that is what the Remote Manager told me. Do I need to copy it and change the extension? (I have the SP3 Image CD, downloaded from Novell) I can check on my actual Novell CD when I get back to the shop.

Also, I gave up and fdisked the drive that I wound up with a broke iManager on. Hooked up the other drive, Netware booted right up. Trouble is, it says that the disk I booted on is 96% mirrored. Mirror is not running, and looks like no chance to change its mind. So now I can't remirror.

The more I go, the behinder I get! Late for an evening appointment, will be back on here later.

Thanks tons.

Paul Ray

Programming Languages -- .BAT Files

Preffered editor -- EDLIN

 

[pray11342]

Hey Marv and others,

I am convinced.

Using this migrated server, every thing I need to do to get things up and running, I look in the Manual, and it says "First, start iManager --".

No one here seems to like it much. I understand that from the little I have used it. However, it looks to me like some of the things that are installed with iManager out of the box will make life easier in the long run.

The "Pre Migration Server" installation that I currently have been experimenting on is a royal pain. All my 5.0 users and objects are there, but anything I need to do in Netware 6.5 is broke. I mentioned in an earlier post, it took Novell tech support over 3 hours on the phone to get iManager running on the last migration I did. I looked over the TID that we were going by. It just seems life will be easier if Novell installs it vanilla fudge from the CD.

I am going with Marv's suggestion that I install a new server in the current tree, and move the files and functions over to it on the fly. It will have the advantage of having all the management functions available from the gitgo. There will be some minor disruption for the users, but they were going to be in for it with the pre-migration setup as well. NDPS Printing is in their future also.

The biggest problem that I see is that I need to eventually pull the old 5.0 server, and make the new P4 box the only server again.

Is there any reason that this can't be done? If not, I am on my way with it.

Thanks to everyone here for all the help. Any "Gotchas" about "migrating" (with a small m) would be a great help. Going to get started on it as soon as the licenses arrive.

Thanks again. If I get in over my head, I will be back with a new thread.

Paul Ray

Programming Languages -- .BAT Files

Preffered editor -- EDLIN

 

[terry712]

the migration wizard - is ok for some things but it's doesnt include any services at all - it's a glorified copy
and after it you will need to reinstall everything
imanage and all others seems easier to install clean

imanage isnt important for iprint unless as marv says for xp drivers
to be truthful for all other functions for printing i still use nwadmin

and i must confess i'm an iprint convert and favour it do ndps now - especially the iprint command line tool as the policies are still a bit limitied but the command allows easy nals

 

[LawnBoy]

I don't run iManager either (so call me a Luddite, I don't care). The patterned installs are definitely the way to go, but in looking over the different patterns I don't see a single one that admits to installing NDPS (not even the iPrint server pattern) so I'm assuming NDPS always gets installed.

There's a quick way to tell if you've got NDPS installed. Open NWAdmin, select some part of the tree and try to create a new object. If you can see any of the 3 NDPS objects to choose from then NDPS is installed.

First, create a Broker. All you'll need to decide here is a name. Then create a Manager, you'll need to decide where to spool print jobs. Then start creating the Agents, one agent per printer.

As an aside, there is a serious advantage to having 2 Netware servers running, even if one of them is a tiny PC that does nothing. The second one will hold a copy of the NDS tree; you'll thank yourself if your primary server's disk controller goes out and you don't have to rebuild the entire tree from scratch. Will save you much time and headache.

 

[LawnBoy]

Whoops, I mis-stated

Then start creating the Agents, one agent per printer.

That should read, Then start creating printers in the containers you want them, and this will automatically create the Agents.

 

[pray11342]

Lawnboy, I think you are right about the second server.

A year ago, I had to rebuild a server that crashed. That's when I found out that backup tapes are great for recovering data, but I have never successfully recovered the directory information from them. I notice there are companies selling big $ solutions to recover everything to a new box, and assume that it is difficult to do from backup tapes.

I rebuilt the tree from scratch on that one, and would not like to do it again. About 40 users, and none of them had ever stored squat in their home directories, didn't even know they were there, so it wasn't impossible. Most of them ran a legacy 32 bit pervasive database, had the one window open all day selling stuff. None of them could spell Novell.

My experience has been with single server operations, migrated all of them from Netware 3 to 4.2 then Netware 5, and now going to 6.5. The client I am now moving is a 50 user license, and they make much more sophisticated use of the Novell than the guys that crashed. Never occurred to me how much would be saved if I had a replica of the NDS.

On Netware 5, we would have to buy a second license, wouldn't we? Any way to move part of the licenses to another server?

Using Nofvell 6.5 SBS, they claim you can install all the servers you want. Makes it especially attractive there.

Thanks for the tip. All my customers have older PCs that could easily be used for a backup NDS tree. Will set them up ASAP. I definetely need the hands on as well.

Thanks again,

Paul Ray

Programming Languages -- .BAT Files

Preffered editor -- EDLIN

 

[bytehd]

yes 6.5 SBS licensing is kinda spacey.
I installed all the licenses on my first server.
then when Server #2 installed and mirrored NDS, I could login to either server up to license count plus grace.
Works fine as a non-cluster.
Spread the printing and Groupwise out to server #2.
File serving only on Server #1
schweet performance

CIFS is wierd though........

George Walkey
Senior Geek in charge

http://www.insyncva.com